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Pistons 103, Bucks 89: Milwaukee hits rock bottom in Central

So let's just put this out there: the 10/11 Bucks--the guys that we've seen playing actual NBA basketball games thus far--are not a good team. 

More specifically, they are not the team we hoped they would be, but rather a 5-10 team with significant work to do in order to get back to the levels expected of them a month ago. And while there are certainly extenuating circumstances which help rationalize some of that--injuries to Andrew Bogut and Carlos Delfino come to mind--we also need to be realistic about the hole that they are digging themselves at this still early stage of the season.  The season is long--remember the 12-18 start a year ago--but starting slowly and losing against the teams you're supposed to beat only narrows the margin of error with the remaining part of the schedule.

That hole continued to get deeper on Friday, as they officially took over the title of worst team in the Central following a fairly one-sided loss to the normally mediocre-at-best Pistons. Detroit looked sharper, more talented, and significantly more confident, and even the Bucks' usually stingy defense could do nothing to stop them for more than a few possessions at a time. It wasn't so much a matter of effort as it was focus and consistency, the same plight that has thus far doomed them on offense as well. 

Star-divide

It didn't take long to see it, either, as Rodney Stuckey, Rip Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince set the early tone for their effiecient scoring nights by splashing in mid-range jumpers to stake the Pistons to an early 22-12 lead that the Bucks never really recovered from. While Stuckey didn't exploit Brandon Jennings on the block as much as he hoped, the Pistons consistently moved the ball and found makable shots. 

Overall, Detroit shot exceptionally well (56.2%), and some of that was certainly independent of Milwaukee's defensive effort. But the Bucks were also making the kind of mental miscues that greatly simplify things. Poor weakside rotations twice allowed Jason Maxiell to spring free for dunks early on, Tayshaun Prince similarly waltzed in for an early dunk, and the Pistons caught the Bucks' transition defense napping on a number of occasions as well.

At 29-15, the Bucks looked well on their way to their fifth straight loss, but they dusted themselves off and Jennings went to work with a handful of drives through the Pistons' poor P&R defense. The lead was just 33-30 when Ersan Ilyasova (14 pts/11 rebs) splashed in a long jumper, but the Bucks shot themselves in the foot shortly thereafter. Crashing back down to earth after his 18 point effort on Wednesday, Keyon Dooling saw a speculative 20-foot bounce pass intercepted, compounding the error by committing a clear path foul on Ben Gordon going the other way. The sentiment was right, but the outcome was rather wrong. Not only did Gordon hit the throws, but Stuckey then drove to the hoop for a three point play, capping a five point possession that helped assure the Pistons a double-digit lead at the half.

The Bucks then showed an early sign of life in the third--Detroit's Achilles heel thus far--but it proved fleeting. John Salmons, underwhelming as ever up to that point, wriggled past Ben Wallace on the baseline to finish an and-one on the reverse, Jennings then sprinted through the PIston transition defense to find Mbah a Moute for a layup, and Drew Gooden drilled a baseline jumper to make it 55-50.  The Bucks had begun to show some energy with Ilyasova, Mbah a Moute and Gooden combining to deny Maxiell and Prince around the hoop, but it was seemingly gone in a flash once the Pistons calmed down. Over the next four possessions, Hamilton made one jumper and assisted on three other hoops, restoring the Pistons' commanding lead and making the final 18 minutes of the game fairly academic.

Three Bucks

Ersan Ilyasova. It hasn't gotten the headlines, but Ilyasova's struggles have been yet another key cog in the Bucks' engine of disappointment. So it was certainly nice to see him come in and immediately start making shots in the second, helping the Bucks claw within a 34-30 margin that suggested they still had a good shot at turning the game around. Ilyasova got the better of Charlie Villanueva early on, but Villanueva hit an open three in the third and then piled up eight more points with the game in hand in the fourth.  

Brandon Jennings. Jennings' 25 points were pretty hollow in a statistical sense--he needed 22 shots and 11 free throws to get there, which translates to a well-below average 47% true shooting figure. But from the start Jennings was aggressive and attacking the Pistons' soft P&R defense, getting the vast majority of his shots in the immediate basket area and looking like the only Buck capable of creating anything offensively. Many of his attempts also had a fairly high degree of difficulty thanks to shot-blockers like Wallace and Maxiell, which is also why he shot such a low percentage in spite of the proximity of most of his shots (6/14 at the rim).

But from a qualitative perspective it was actually an encouraging, aggressive performance, particularly after his miserable night in Cleveland on Wednesday. For some reason the Pistons' bigs didn't show hard on P&R, often forcing Stuckey and Bynum to go under screens to track Jennings, who by that time usually had the crease he needed to get to the rim. That's the kind of defense you'd hope to see more of if you're the Bucks, though the Pistons seemed to catch on in the second half as they began to show/recover more consistently. With the Bucks' other options continuing to struggle, Jennings took an increasing offensive burden as the first half wore on, and he was a big reason why the Bucks trailed by only 10 at the half. Should he have passed more once he got into the lane? Well sure, it'd be great if he could mix it up more on nights when he's not making a high percentage, but looking around at his options I don't feel strong condemnation is in order.

Jennings also got Stuckey in foul trouble, but the bigger Piston was also vastly more efficient, using his length and strength to post an excellent 8/12 shooting line for 18 points along with seven assists in just 28 minutes. 

Larry Sanders. I'll downplay Sanders' offensive contributions since half of his four field goals came in the waning minutes when both teams had lost interest in defense, but overall it was a second straight encouraging performance from the 15th overall pick. Sanders emphatically blocked two shots and altered a slew of others, defending the paint admirably with Bogut absent, and he also logged his first double-figure rebounding game in a well-deserved 31 minutes. Probably the most notable thing about Sanders' game the past week has been his ability to position himself better defensively and avoid fouling every time he gets near the ball--the kind of thing Skiles is no doubt weighing heavily in his increased utilization (aside from Bogut's obvious absence).   

Three Numbers

56.2%. I'll go out on a limb and say there's zero chance the Bucks win a game right now surrendering 56% shooting to their opponents. 

21. Another night of bricks from the Bucks helped lead to a season-high 21 offensive rebounds, matching the Bucks' season high from a year ago. Which, strangely enough, also came in a loss to the Pistons.

28. The Pistons tallied a season-high in assists, including a surprising nine dimes from Rip Hamilton. Overall it was just a nice performance from Detroit, which ran their screen plays diligently, finished around the rim (17/26), and also made more than their fair share of jump shots (7/9 from 10-15 feet, 10/20 long twos, 7/14 threes). 

No Good One Good

Ball control. So I took another look and I think I found something!  With only nine turnovers, the Bucks actually took care of the ball much better than we've seen so far this season, an issue that we've highlighted on a number of occasions as a contributor to the Bucks' offensive struggles. Unfortunately, a couple of those turnovers were especially memorable--Dooling's aforementioned bad pass in the second and Jennings' careless fumble near halfcourt that allowed Villanueva to swoop in for a dunk in the third. And despite taking better care of the ball, the Pistons were somehow credited with more points off turnovers (23-22) than the Bucks. Hey, I didn't say the transition defense was good...

Three Bad

Defensive execution. Odds are the Pistons would have scored pretty well on anyone tonight, but the Bucks didn't consistently do the little things correctly most of the night. Maxiell's early dunks were a good example, and had little to do with effort and all to do with one team executing better than the other.

Missing Carlos. The Bucks never made fewer than three triples in a game last year, but they were again held below that figure with their 2/14 effort tonight. With Bogut sidelined, Carlos Delfino out and everyone else laying bricks (principally Jennings, Dooling, and Salmons), the Bucks become rather easy to defend, don't they? What's especially worrying is that we're beginning to hope that Delfino and CD-R will somehow provide a magic tonic once they return.  No doubt they'll certainly help, but the fact that the Bucks have lost to teams missing more important players (Durant/Green with OKC and Iguodala for Philly) suggests there's a lot more to it than just missing one guy who can hit three pointers.

More important is for Bogut to get on the court and begin providing some semblance of a threat in the post, while Salmons and Maggette need to score more consistently. Jennings making shots obviously helps as well, but we saw last spring the Bucks can win without Brandon scoring consistently so long as he defends and runs the offense effectively.    

The hole. The Bucks are now 5-10 with a winnable home game against Charlotte Saturday followed by some tough matchups on the road in Utah and Denver before a return home against Orlando. Beyond that, there's another West Coast trip in late Like last season, it's very possible the Bucks finish the calendar year well below .500 and need a major surge in the New Year to scrape back into the thick of the playoff picture, though it's also worth pointing out that just making the playoffs in the East won't exactly require a Herculean effort.  

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Don't even know what to think or say anymore

Were some of the pundits right who thought last year was an aberration and that we would be around 500 this year(looks good right now). Is tonight the night? Do we miss Delfino that much? Is our opinion of Hammond changing? Is Skiles losing the team?

Just a bunch of random thoughts but I guess I’m just searching for answers. Need someone to step up that hasn’t so far(such as a bit of Ilyasova last night but I’m hoping Maggette)

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 8:43 AM CST reply actions  

patience

“So let’s just put this out there: the 10/11 Bucks—the guys that we’ve seen playing actual NBA basketball games thus far—are not a good team.”

we are still pretty much the best defensive team in the league, so to say we are not a good team if just flat out poor journalism. really frank, control your emotions. we are currently five games under .500 and were five games under .500 until the end of january last year. there is plenty of time to get the offense together, and all of our injuries are very much to blame for the lack of productivity. so long as we are healthy come playoff time we will give any team in the east a fit in a seven game series, in any round. lets not start name-calling quite yet. but if that’s your style…

by Eroco6 on Nov 27, 2010 10:05 AM CST reply actions  

He said, "Let's just put that out there"

How is this poor journalism? Well, you seem to be looking through each post to find things to criticize anyway so I don’t know why I bother…

"I'm not Nostradamus or anybody, so I don't know. Luckily, this is the worst injury I've had in my career so far."

- Drew Gooden, on the severity of his toe injury.

by Jacob Grinyer on Nov 27, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

The point is that the team we've seen has been poor

Doesn’t mean we won’t see better ball, but I think we need to divorce what we want to see from what we have so far.

by Frank Madden on Nov 27, 2010 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

5 games under .500 is not good.

While I applaud your confidence in the team, and I agree that things will get better, the current iteration of the Milwaukee Bucks has done nothing to suggest it is a good basketball team. It has lost twice as many games as it has won, and many of those games have come against very poor opponents. If that’s a good team, I don’t know what a bad team looks like. The Clippers, I suppose.

Here’s the thing about defense: it’s only valuable for its ability to hold opponents below the level of offense a team is capable of producing itself. Right now (according to Basketball-Reference), the Bucks have an ORtg of 99.1 and a DRtg of 100.0. That’s a phenomenal DRtg, to be sure, but it’s HIGHER than our ORtg. For as good as our defense is, we’re not even performing at a high enough level on offense to eclipse the scores we’re holding opponents to. It doesn’t matter if they have a phenomenal defense if Milwaukee can’t score points itself.

I’m always on here spouting out advanced stats and complaining that Milwaukee does many important things well and that they should be winning more games, but right now they are not. Until they start winning basketball games, the Bucks cannot be called a good team.

www.Brewhoop.com, http://where55happens.wordpress.com

by Dan Sinclair on Nov 27, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

first step to salvation and redemption is admitting you suck...........and we suck

fair enough we may keep teams to 90 pts but if we are are only capable of scoring 89 it still ends up a big fat L

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on Nov 27, 2010 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey Eroco6 - have you watched/listened to any of the games this yr????

If so, you’d know that for the most, the “Bucks are not a good team”

Frank’s correct.

by victor s on Nov 27, 2010 10:13 AM CST reply actions  

I'm hoping that this is the lowest point of our season, right here

If not, we’ll probably either be a few games below .500 or at .500, because Skiles’ teams always find a way to scrape out some wins, but altogether it makes for another disappointing year.

"I'm not Nostradamus or anybody, so I don't know. Luckily, this is the worst injury I've had in my career so far."

- Drew Gooden, on the severity of his toe injury.

by Jacob Grinyer on Nov 27, 2010 11:11 AM CST reply actions  

The Dec and early Jan schedule is brutal.....

As silly as it sounds, the Bucks season may be over by Ney Years.

by victor s on Nov 27, 2010 11:34 AM CST reply actions  

If the only standard is 50 wins, then that hope might be done by then

But I think we saw last year that strange stuff can happen when a team gets a in groove. We can’t bank on a 22-8 finish to the season either, but looking at the rest of the East it’s certainly still possible to suggest 40-45 wins.

At the end of the day I think the waterfall of key things begins with Bogut’s health followed by Salmons’ scoring consistency.

by Frank Madden on Nov 27, 2010 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

And I wasn't suggesting

That the season is over, hopefully this is just a 5 game glitch and we’ll be laughing about this in a month or two. But ya……as Frank said this has not been a good team so far

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 12:28 PM CST reply actions  

And I hereby

Name Speedy…Constable of the Flame Police

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 12:37 PM CST reply actions  

How about

Being objective with malice aforethought

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

no way this season is a write off but we need to pull the finger outta our ass and get some xcitement back

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on Nov 27, 2010 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

I try my best :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_0uMSy2WUw

"I'm not Nostradamus or anybody, so I don't know. Luckily, this is the worst injury I've had in my career so far."

- Drew Gooden, on the severity of his toe injury.

by Jacob Grinyer on Nov 27, 2010 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe is a little early

and I’m not considering that the season is over either. But with Bogut’s injury, Salmons disaster, and bud luck (too many injured people), we should also think the part Skiles deserves in this bad start. Specially the way he imagined the improvement of this team. Not that I have a special theory about it, but now I got to know the players he chose and the ones he let go (Ridnour, basically) something looks wrong with it. Can’t gather much evidence, but for me it feels he somehow distrusted his own methods and convictions. As if he thought his discipline, roughness, collective approach weren’t enough for the team to climb to a next level.

Any thoughts?
 

by palomba on Nov 27, 2010 12:51 PM CST reply actions  

The Ridnour move was interesting

If the goal was to double down on the 09/10 roster and add a couple other pieces, then you’d have guessed Ridnour would be a key part of that strategy, especially since he didn’t command a huge deal at the end of the day. In many ways the risks with re-signing Ridnour were very similar to those with re-signing Salmons, except Ridnour was less important and less expensive.

I don’t think it’s possible for Dooling to be this bad for the remainder of the season, but obviously the downgrade at backup PG has been a major issue thus far. And missing Delfino/CDR has meant Dooling has had to play at SG as well, which clearly hasn’t worked.

by Frank Madden on Nov 27, 2010 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not saying he's going to be GOOD :)

But he’s never shot this bad or generally been so unproductive—5.70 PER is half of what he put up last year on a bad team while recovering from his hip injury. There’s bad, and then there’s “I’m not good enough to play in high school” bad :)

by Frank Madden on Nov 27, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I bet Hammonds is having major second thoughts about not getting a better option to play backup PG

I mean he waited so long all that was left were scraps, Dooling isn’t even really a PG, he is kind of like a combo guard, I won’t call him a shooting guard because clearly he can’t shoot, but his passing instincts seem plain awful, he can’t even make basic passes to run the offense, when he come in to run the show it goes like this, Dribble, stand, Dribble, Dribble, shot clock running down, he jacks up a long brick.

by puremisery on Nov 27, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

i think we are scraping the barrell looking at Dooling's poor play though

the core of this team is Bogut, Gooden, Delfino/Luc/Ersan, Maggette, Jennings, Salmons if they cant get it done I wouldnt look to blame budget back ups

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on Nov 27, 2010 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Ridnour

Would he have made much of a difference in the first 15 games? I’m not sure he would have. Look at Carlos Arroyo in Miami, shooting 65% from 3 and 52.9 for the season. Is he that good of a shooter? Or getting a lot of wide-open looks because of his teammates. Sometimes stats are a product of the team. Not saying he wouldn’t be better than Dooling but Bucks couldn’t afford the asking price with the other salaries.

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the thing about Skiles is

His offense relies a lot on outside shooting. He basically tells his players to shoot it whenever they get open. While It could be a good thing in the long run, this team, especially minus Delfino, has almost no spot up shooters. In Chicago Skiles had a plethora of options to go to (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, etc) And without Bogut it’s even worse because we don’t have anybody that opposing defenses really fear.

I think we should have gone after a player like Rip Hamilton this year instead of Maggette, TBH. He could flourish, washed up as he may be, in this system, and could provide a jump shot when we need it.

"I'm not Nostradamus or anybody, so I don't know. Luckily, this is the worst injury I've had in my career so far."

- Drew Gooden, on the severity of his toe injury.

by Jacob Grinyer on Nov 27, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

So many issues, I wish that Skiles would try to get a lineup

on the floor with Jennings, Magette, Sanders, and Mboute tonight and tell Jennings to push the tempo on makes and misses, get those other guys really running the floor hard, try to use Jennings speed to get more easy baskets for himself and the others by scorching the ball up the court and drawing defenders. Its obvious the standing around half court sets featuring Salmons aren’t working. Magette seemed to flourish in the uptempo Golden State system last year(shot 51% on FG’s not 40% like in Milwaukee), I think its worth a shot to really up the speed at least until they get some of the injured guys back.

by puremisery on Nov 27, 2010 1:08 PM CST reply actions  

I agree 100%

During the off-season I thought they had the personnel to run showtime offense but Skiles seems reluctant. I know he prefers the way he’s doing it now but clearly the offense part isn’t working. Can’t do any worse anyway and no one is hitting from outside.

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

yup its about time we throw some new looks

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on Nov 27, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

I say go 7SOL

"I'm not Nostradamus or anybody, so I don't know. Luckily, this is the worst injury I've had in my career so far."

- Drew Gooden, on the severity of his toe injury.

by Jacob Grinyer on Nov 27, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes

How much did Brockman play last night anyway?

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

10 min

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on Nov 27, 2010 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Skiles is pretty stubborn

I wouldn’t be shocked if Brockman gets the start even if he’s had such little impact on the team so far.

Never thought I’d say this but I wish sort of wish we would have kept Darnell Jackson…. He’s having a decent year for Sac.

"I'm not Nostradamus or anybody, so I don't know. Luckily, this is the worst injury I've had in my career so far."

- Drew Gooden, on the severity of his toe injury.

by Jacob Grinyer on Nov 27, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Wasn't expecting much

From Brockman though, think he might be the 13th man when everyone is healthy.

Chris Bosh said he's happy because he can get League Pass now in Miami. In Toronto, said he didn't have "the good cable."

by CanadaBucks on Nov 27, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions  

personally i dont have much sympathy for us

we took on the general scorn/risk of signing gooden/maggettw/salmons……….we cant be ignorant…..you have to put up or shut……………so far we should shut up………I also think we are not that far off being a good team but we have to earn that with our roster and so far we have lived up to the previous poor reps of the players on this roster

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on Nov 27, 2010 1:45 PM CST reply actions  

I want to see if Jennings comes out tonight vs CHA and maintains that downhill attack the paint style

or if he reverts back to settling for jumpers. If he plays like he did last night, the Bucks should win at home vs the Bobkitties.

by puremisery on Nov 27, 2010 4:41 PM CST reply actions  

NOT AGAIN!

Oh geez…

Wisconsin, Big Ten Champions for the first time since 1999...
For all the crap we give Wil Wheaton, he can still tackle better than Asante Samuel...

by OBrienSchofieldismyHero on Nov 28, 2010 5:14 PM CST reply actions  

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