Combine Measurements: Big men looking very big
by Frank Madden on May 23, 2010 1:46 PM CDT
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Comprehensive testing data from the Chicago pre-draft camp isn't available yet, but Jonathan Givony at DraftExpress has discussion of most of the key guys' measurements and NBADraft.net also has their winners and losers and a full list of measurements. Expect vertical, bench press, and speed testing numbers to leak out later this week. Jim Paschke also has some interviews from Chicago over at Bucks.com (one you can see above) which are definitely worth a look. After the jump we've got discussion of measurements and video of some of the Bucks' players of interest, but on a high level most of the guys we've been talking about measured either as well or better than expected.
Patrick Patterson impresses. Patterson was listed at 6'8" in college but checked in over 6'9" with shoes and with a wingspan just over 7'1", easing fears that he was a bit undersized for the PF spot. Givony also writes that Patterson's interviews have been extremely impressive (see below), which shouldn't be underestimated for a chemistry-conscious team like the Bucks.
Gordon Hayward has alligator arms. I'm more curious to see how his speed and vertical testing turns out, but Hayward is a bit unique in that his wingspan was a quarter inch shorter (6'7.75") than his in-shoes measurement (6'8"). Not a good thing, but it's not like anyone was worried he was too small to play on the wing.
Paul George is long. For a swingman, George's 6'7.75" measurement without shoes makes him pretty damn big, and no one will question his length either (6'11.75"). Givony notes that both George and Luke Babbitt measured almost the same in Chicago and are getting plenty of buzz at the moment. George seems to be a favorite in our comments section as well, and he comes across as a pretty good interview as well.
Larry Sanders and Hassan Whiteside are even longer. The term "freak" gets thrown around a lot this time of year, but Sanders and Whiteside deserves it as much as anyone. Though Sanders might be a bit light at 222 pounds, he's got center size at over 6'9" without shoes, a nearly 7'6" wingspan, and a 9'4" standing reach. To put that in perspective, Andrew Bogut measured 6'11" without shoes with a 7'3" wingspan and 9'2.5" standing reach in 2005. Sanders was one of the few guys with mid-first round talent taking part in drills in Chicago, some of which you can watch below (along with some ESPN scouting report footage). You can also check out an interview with him here.
The baby-faced Whiteside is even bigger, at 6'10.5" without shoes, a ridiculous 7'7" wingspan and a 9'5" standing reach. Measuring well was a must for Whiteside considering the bigger questions about his maturity and bball IQ, which I imagine puts him at a disadvantage relative to more experienced guys like Patterson. Ekpe Udoh wasn't quite as big (6'8.75" without shoes, nearly 7'4" wingspan) but he's plenty big enough to be an NBA 4/5.
Xavier Henry is big enough. Checking in at just under 6'6" without shoes and over 6'11" of wingspan, Henry looks big enough to play either the 2 or 3, but that doesn't answer questions about his athleticism and upside. Check out Givony's interview with Henry below:
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super stuff.........I dont envy Hammonds
tough range to pick in………..hmm that Patterson isnt actually isnt undersized almost is a game changer if he is around at 15 tough one to pass on considering you figure he is ready to make an immediate impact and he seems like a great fit on any team
George’s height and supposed skill set seem pretty appealing as well being able to play the 3 and when you want to go big pushing to shooting guard seems like a good compliment to what we need?
Though Im not sold on Xavier Henry not having much upside…the kid is only a freshman this season and was solid enough….seems like a pretty solid pick…I kinda hope he is off the boards by 15 because I wouldnt want to pass on him
A lot of mocks had Patterson in the late lotto even before all this came out, so Im thinking this could help guarantee he’s gone by the time we pick. It will definitely be interesting
to see if guys like George also continue to rise up draft boards—and on the flip side, odds are somebody that we currently see as a lock to be gone ends up available when we pick. Happens every year.
by Frank Madden on May 23, 2010 7:38 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
yes very true.........
either way unless you completely mess it up, not get tiresome and keep on bringing up the ghost Joe Christmas past, but you should get a pretty decent contributor and heck if you luck out a guy who a few years later people sit back and wonder how the heck did that guy go at 15…….
curios George I am, could Paul George be that smokey? dude just reminds of Joe Johnson, good height, nice stroke, smooth mover…….at least the ‘young’ Joe Johnson not playing for a contract play off Joe Johnson ;)
Patterson is interesting seems working out decently can help you…….hello people show people what you can do……seems like that is some really bad advice from their agents…..of course it is if they are not hiding anything
but yeah there should be one interesting big guy come pick 15, Larry Sanders perhaps
Thanks BrewHoop
For all that you provide. This information was wonderful and easy to access. Keep up the good work gang.
Thanks Tom. I wish I could give you guys a more “expert” view of the draft, but as I’ve often said I don’t follow the college game closely enough to do that…so I’m happy to just collect info on what’s going on and let you guys make up your own minds. I’m sure many of you know these guys much better than I do, so I definitely enjoy the commentary and discussion.
Overall we know the odds are stacked against us in terms of finding an immediate impact type player, but we also know that there’s usually some good talent still floating around at 15. A number of these guys are starting to grow on me (George, Patterson, Sanders) and nobody’s really turned me off (even Hayward). Hope always springs eternal in May and June…
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions
No problem
For someone who claims to not know much, you certainly drop a lot of knowledge our way. As to the players, George intrigues me because of upside. What what I have seen, he can play the 2 or the 3. That is what differentiates him from Hayward, who wouldn’t be able to play the 2 and might have trouble guarding guys at the 3 (although in fairness, some think he can play some 4 too). Patterson is the most polished, maturity wise. But can he play the 4? Not sure.
I want Xavier Henry. I want nothing to do with Gordon Hayward. Paul George is intriguing. Lance Stephenson is going to go crazy Marbury style, but first he’s going to light up the league for years.
Henry is interesting at some point with the talk about his lack of upside......
eventually you become under rated and he may slip……I he could become the bargain of this years draft
I also wonder whether people would be complaining about his upside so much if he had been somewhere other than Kansas. Given all the talent they had, that really wasn’t the type of situation where a young player is going to stand out. I know the “upside” questions have as much to do with his athleticism as his productivity last year, but you always wonder how much of it could be an overreaction.
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions
yup
its one to consider playing at a big college he put up pretty solid numbers for a freshman, certainly he didnt dominate……but potential wise you would assume there is a ton of improvement with a guy like him, and in a good NBA program the upside would be pretty good…..so I dont buy that……..maybe NBA gm’s dont buy that either and he will be off the boards at 15 but if he is there he will be tough to pass
hmm now I think I have advocated for George, Henry, Patterson, Sanders.....so I have my bases covered :)
easy being an armchair GM
i am really starting to like Patterson.
After hearing his interviews we found out he is a very well spoken young man, who is ambitious and is willing to play where he has the chance to. As well, He is from a small town and said that playing in a small market would be just fin for him. I still prefer Udoh, but Patterson looks like he is ready to come in and compete for a win right away.
Go Beer, I mean Bucks
by Take Back Our Bucks on May 24, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
agree......this buzz he is getting though will most likely by pick 15 he is taken
but still with guys like Udoh, Sanders, Whiteside around one guy will be around at 15 you figure if the Bucks want to go that way……..most likely it will be Sanders I figure
a few interesting combo guards that have been getting some good press Dominique Jones, Terrico White, Avery Bradley……guys that can defend and physically hold their own…..hopefully if we take a big guy at 15 one of these guys slips to the 2nd round and we can get a look……doubtful though especially with Jones & Bradley………..with Ridnour’s uncertainty and a general lack of depth at the guard position they would be handy I suppose
MadTownHoops - Why no Hayward?
I would like to hear your reasoning on Gordon Hayward. I have some reservations, which I posted earlier.
Tiny arms. Said he models his game on Steve Nash, he’s not a point guard. Comes off as not the brightest basketball mind. Tweener forward who does not excel at any specific position. Screams small market fanbase satiating pick. Joe Alexander flashbacks.
by MadTown Hoops on May 26, 2010 1:24 AM CDT up reply actions
In the words of Ed McMahon
Yes, You are correct sir!
Go Beer, I mean Bucks
by Take Back Our Bucks on May 26, 2010 8:48 AM CDT up reply actions
George,Henry,Patterson,Sanders
I like all of those at 15 if they are there and you would think at least one of them will be there.
FEAR THE DEER!!! but not til next year =(
by russelTHEmuscle on May 24, 2010 10:41 AM CDT reply actions
Warriors
What do you guys think about a 15 + Ersan swap with Golden State for #7? I really like the guy, and I think Golden State would too because his two greatest strengths are what they value the most in big men (rebounding and three point shooting). I think it makes sense for us because like it or not, Mboute is most productive at the 4 spot. Which means our two best bench players are backup power forwards. If we could get up to the sixth or seventh pick, I think we can get a true impact guy (Paul George, Greg Monroe, etc) as opposed to just taking scraps at 15 and adding yet another bench guy.
I guess it all comes down to if you think it is more probable that Ersan becomes a quality starter for us, or more probably that we can get a quality starter at #7.
by REO Sheedwagon on May 24, 2010 11:27 AM CDT reply actions
Hadn't really thought about it, but...
Ersan’s game certainly fits Nelly’s style very well.
I guess the question is do you get a significant upgrade at 7 over 15…if you really like Ed Davis, Udoh, and Monroe, then odds are the only way you get them is by moving up a bit.
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Monroe
If we can get Monroe then I would say definitly do it. monroe could be the impact player we need to make another playoff run. We definitly need another big who can do it all and Monroe fits that bill. I think we definitly have to move up to 6 to get him with detroit at 7 looking to take him.
FEAR THE DEER!!! but not til next year =(
by russelTHEmuscle on May 24, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Monroe and Bogut would be a really interesting combo up top…I think on most teams Monroe will end up playing center, but he has a high enough skill level that you could go with a twin towers look against teams with bigger power forwards. And it would obviously be great to have a quality backup at center given Bogut’s inability to stay healthy.
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I've heard comparisons with Chris Webber, Lamar Odom, even Pau Gasol
Which is probably one of my favorite type of player, a big guy with Passing ability that can run an offense. Although it’s said that he needs to work on his post moves and isn’t very athletic.
NBA draft insider: “Greg Monroe is the best passing big man the college game has seen since Andrew Bogut.” Nice.
But this to me sounds like a pipe dream. And there’s no guarantee that he’ll even be that good. Plus I’m hesitant to give up Ersan, after all he’s only 23 (birthday was 9 days ago!) and there’s no telling what he can become.
"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on May 24, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I want Ersan no matter what. We’ve watched him develop for years. Under Skiles he has the ability to make the leap. He’s always just needed confidence. His skillset is hard to find in the NBA.
by MadTown Hoops on May 26, 2010 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Higher on pushing for trading for the 2nd pick
Personally, I think the risk/reward for Monroe is similar to what they would get at 15 and too risky to lose a guy like Ersan for but…
Why not look to trade up with the 76ers and push for Evan Turner which doesn’t looks to be so risky at all. I even think taking on Elton Brands contract of $51 Mil for 3 years could be worth it as Brand would probably be a better PF then we currently have and potentially get his mojo back. Maybe like an 15th pick, Ersan, Redd trade for Brand and 2nd pick. Clearly getting Turner would allow us to let Salmons go and leave the Bucks with a nuts young core of Jennings, Turner, and Bogut.
yeah true
but I think you have to look at this realisticly. Do we really want to trade ersan and do we really want to have the Elton Brand contract? I think maybe the risk/reward that you are talking about for monroe also needs to be considered with Turner and especially Elton Brand. The last thing this team needs is more deadweight and I have a feeling Elton Brand would be just that. Unless we can unload Redd,Gadz, and bell to the sixers i think its a bad deal. But just my opinion.
FEAR THE DEER!!! but not til next year =(
by russelTHEmuscle on May 24, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Redd would have to be part of the deal
I think if you can get a guy like Turner without giving up Bogut/Jennings then you do it, even if you cap yourself out for the next few seasons. I don’t know if Turner is going to be a superstar but there’s a chance he could be, which you can’t put a price on in the NBA. And if the Bucks had the 2nd pick I’m not sure they’d even go for Turner—Favors would look pretty fantastic next to Bogut as well.
For that reason I’d be surprised if the Sixers traded the #2 unless they got another high pick back (like Minny’s #4) or a very good young player (I don’t think Ersan counts). Otherwise it sends a pretty bad message to your fans—sorry, we’d rather save money than get a potential superstar.
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
The 76ers have at least 4 bad long term contracts on their roster in Brand, Iggy, Dalembert, and Kapono.
Redd and 15th pick and Ersan(and/or whoever besides Jennings and Bogut they want) might not be appealing as far as the upside of that group to Philly but the teams with early picks may be unwilling to take on Brands contract which has been said to be attached to the 2nd pick for trading purposes. If the Bucks would be willing to take it, they would put themselves in a good place for acquiring that pick. Basically it will come down to how strong the 76ers have their foot down about moving Brand with the pick.
In which Turner should be chosen over Favors by the Bucks because Turner is the ultimate SG. Athletic, 6’7" shoots well, handles well, creates for himself, defends well. Favors has the great upside, but I think this is a Darko-Carmelo kind of situation. Hopefully, Hammond wouldn’t be fooled twice.
Clarifying
Favors will probably and hopefully be better than Darko, but has not in any way, shape, or form proven to be as good as Turner. Favors had a very average Freshman year with minimal display that he can lead a team in any category. Turner showed he could do it all and did it all in Milwaukee in the tournament against Favors and Georgia Tech.
We still have a lot of options, even in Patterson goes lottery.
Is the PF the most prominent position in this draft? Turner and Wall appear to be the only guards going in the lottery.
"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern
*if
"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on May 24, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it's the year of the bigs
Wall/Turner go top of the draft and Wes Johnson and Aminu is probably not too far behind, but it looks like the lottery will otherwise be all 4/5s.
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you think he's going to go in the lottery?
For a guy who was rated #1 in some of the prep rankings coming into 09/10, his performance last year was a pretty big letdown IMO. Solid percentage from three, but he wasn’t a creator for others and had some really poor shooting efficiency numbers (43% from the field, 55% from the line, 50% true shooting) for a low-volume shooter. Only Lance Stephenson had a worse TS% among SGs likely to be drafted, which is pretty amazing given Bradley wasn’t a #1 scoring option.
If he can be a top defender of both backcourt positions then you can certainly live with him being a short SG, but I’m still not sure where he fits in offensively—I guess best case scenario he’s a Ben Gordon type?
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Jennings
No, they absolutely wouldn’t have. Avery goes 20 or later, at best.
I think the key is that Jennings is a real PG
There are certain parallels as far as both guys being highly touted out of HS and shooting poorly they year after, but at the end of the day everyone knows what position Jennings plays and nobody seems sure if Bradley is a 1 or 2. Even if Bradley is big enough to play the 2, that just means he’s more likely to get most of his minutes at a less important position.
by Frank Madden on May 24, 2010 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
screams combo guard all the way.....
having said that as the third guard off the bench he seems like a a good deal if he can find his offense in the pro’s………defensively wise and competitively wise I like what he brings…..reading about what he has done in the work outs his shooting has been good so you figure he will go in the late first round
hmm interesting
apparently he has been impressing in the pre draft stuff…..if he can stick his jumper thats the main thing that will move him up……..not sure about his playmaking ability at the pg NBA level but if you can score and defend as a combo guard you’ll get minutes…….
I would have thought the lottery was a stretch but with this draft being a bit short on quality guards he could go a bit higher if a team needs that
Ford/NBAdraft.net have him 12-14, DX has him 28th, SI didn’t have him in the first round (seems weird). I imagine a lot will come down to his shooting in workouts…if he has off days it could really hurt him given he didn’t shoot well in college.
by Frank Madden on May 25, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions
preferably
patterson, george, hayward,henry.
I know not many are enamoured with Henry, but he seems very consistent, and show greaty maturity beyond his age. After seeing his interview i started rating him more highy. Also can ppl comment, (as i’ve only seen limited footage, mainly highlights) he doesn’t seem to fare to badly at driving and absorbing contact. I know we could use a few more FTA’s.
And if we do take a wing with 15, it be nice to then gather a PF and C in the later part of the draft.
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