Seraphin, Henry and Whiteside visiting Milwaukee on Monday
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 1:19 PM CDT
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PrintGery Woelfel reports that 20-year-old French big man Kevin Seraphin will be in interviewing in Milwaukee on Monday, the same day that Marshall big man Hassan Whiteside and Kansas swingman Xavier Henry are expected to work out at the Cousins Center. Interestingly, Woelfel writes that Serpahin will be meeting with only four other teams: Oklahoma City, Toronto, Atlanta and Washington.
Seraphin hasn't been working out because of a minor knee injury, but he measured 6'9", 264 pounds with a 7'3" wingspan at the recent Eurocamp. Though athletically gifted, Seraphin is considered something of a project and I'd guess he's a long shot to be taken by the Bucks at #15 for that reason. Still, the Bucks must have convinced him they're interested given he was willing to put Milwaukee on his short list of teams.
In keeping with the big man theme, the Bucks also tried to bring Kentucky freshman Daniel Orton in for a workout on Friday, but he canceled amid speculation that Oklahoma City may have made him a first round promise. Orton has thus far denied that report, but he's canceled his six remaining workouts and the Thunder are well positioned to roll the dice given they have two first round picks (21st and 26th). That same logic makes them an obvious suitor for Seraphin, though it's worth noting that OKC already has the guy Seraphin is most often compared to--promising youngster Serge Ibaka.
I also wonder if Orton's cancellation was somehow related to the rumors of Larry Sanders having a promise with the Bucks. Just connecting the dots, on Thursday Billy McKinney said that they received calls from agents asking about the promise and the next day Orton's workout was canceled, despite the Bucks' insistence no promise exists. Could be a coincidence, too. Either way, it would seem a bit odd for Orton to use a promise at #21 as grounds for refusing workouts with teams picking higher in the draft (money talks, right?), but keep in mind he's an Oklahoma native and it's also possible he's trying to avoid teams like the Bucks that already have an established center on the roster. Whatever the reason, a project center with potential knee problems isn't at the top of my priority list for #15 so I won't be complaining if/when the Bucks pass on him. The Raptors (#13) have also been linked with Orton a fair bit, so it's also very possible he's off the board before the Bucks or Thunder pick--which I'd consider a good thing since it means another potentially more attractive player would be available.
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just a point.......
the way the Bucks came out so strongly with a denial makes you wonder whether the bluff is well and truly on……….if they had just kept quiet about the whole Sanders thing people would have shrugged their shoulders and said no one is going to make a commitment on a 15th pick so who cares………but for them to come out like that and talk about makes me wonder
having said that you cant really do that can you especially in the middle of the first round because you dont know what will happen before……who will drop who will go early……..if your picking in the top two yeah you can promise that kinda thing otherwise the cause and effect of the actions other teams is to direct an impact on what you can and cant do
also what does did Skiles/Sanders dinner constitute? Is it they grabbed a bit together in the cafeteria after the workout or the got suited up and painted the night red in Milwaukee…apologies to Josh Smith who believes that isnt possible…..what does fine dining consist of in Milwaukee Id like to be educated…..seriously
No Whiteside!!!!
Aside from being immature and having a sense of entitlement, HW also got beat up against all the decent centers he played.
With his size & wingspan, there’s a reason that he didn’t go to a hoops power like Duke or UNC – buyer beware!!
that said… I’d love for them to take X at 15 if he’s there, and Seraphin somewhere in the late first/early second.
And to my BJ loving friend…. Milw has a bunch of fabulous restaurants – Sanfords is usually considered the best in fine dining, and Carnivore is Brandon Jennings favorite steakhouse in the city…. I ate there once, and it was great!!
There's also Ryan Braun's water front grill
I haven’t been to it so I can’t testify. :)
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 19, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
cheers......hmm for once I wasnt trying to smart :) was actually interested so nice to know
fyi Im not being sarcastic
hmm surely they are hoping Seraphin drops to the 2nd? seems like a big risk even before the knee injury stifled his pre draft buzz…………Ibaka comparisons are surely best best case for him I still stick by the Seattle trio of picks Petro, Sene & Swift as being a more likely scenario
Whiteside immaturity is interesting…..who isnt mature at that age….but I suppose if your committing to an investment you would like some self awareness
From what I've read about Whiteside....
He’s exceptionally immature….. I’m not saying he isn’t very intriguing, but he’s a boom/bust guy, IMO – and the Bucks can’t risk missing on their first rounder
Of course…. he could turn out to be a better version of Camby, so what do i know??? : )
I think Camby’s probably his upside….he seems to have a pretty nice touch from mid-range and has the length to be a game-changer on defense. But he doesn’t sound like a great post defender at the moment, and Camby really isn’t very good in that dept either.
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Whiteside: "Boom/Bust"
Victor S,
I think that’s a fairly accurate projection of Whiteside. From watching him and talking with him at the NBA draft combine, I think he’s one of the biggest upside guys in the draft (not including any of the top 5 picks). For a guy who could fall out of the lottery and be available at No. 15, you certainly have to strongly consider taking that chance.
If you read my latest article on my JSonline Bucks Beat page, you’ll see a quote I used from Whiteside at the combine where he said he’d be disappointed to fall outside of the lottery and that he wouldn’t work out for teams not picking in the top 14. Obviously, that stance has since changed. Based on information I’m receiving, I believe he will be available when the Bucks pick at 15.
Link to my Bucks Beat page on JSonline: http://bit.ly/JSonline_BucksBeat
by BucksBeatPaul on Jun 19, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Right on...
After speaking to him, how did YOU feel about his maturity/professionalism???
After all…. so much carp on the internet is heresay, anyways.
Thanx!!
Victor S,
Did you see the Whiteside section of my most recent article? The link is in my signature here, so give it a read.
To answer your direct question though, my impression was this: Whiteside is certainly one of two things. He is either very confident, or a bit arrogant. You can look at it either way. I remind people that Jennings was the same way one year ago when he tried out for the Bucks against Flynn and Lawson. Jennings was the outspoken, brash one of the group. That turned out pretty well, and his general on-court swagger turned out to be a huge positive for that team.
Now, don’t get me wrong, Whiteside’s personality isn’t the same as Jennings. But I think the comparison still works, because some guys take that attitude and it makes them excel on the court, while others let it get the best of them while potential gets wasted. It’s the risk any team will be taking when drafting Whiteside.
I do believe attitude will be something that a team will have to address early on with Whiteside. If that team is the Bucks, they’ll know before the end of training camp whether or not Whiteside has the mentality to play for a coach like Scott Skiles. Will Whiteside buy in to the hard-nosed nature of this current Bucks team? I think having Jennings and Bogut on-board with it, they would quickly let Hassan know if he needs to straighten up. I feel the Bucks are the right type of team, with strong leadership on the bench and on the floor, to take the risk on Whiteside. If he goes to a disorganized team that lacks leadership, the result will be far different.
Link to my Bucks Beat page on JSonline: http://bit.ly/JSonline_BucksBeat
by BucksBeatPaul on Jun 19, 2010 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm mostly worried that he's just...dumb
To be honest, all these interviews I’ve seen of him make me think it’s more general stupidity than immaturity, arrogance, etc. I imagine a lot of people have probably blunted their criticism of him because they don’t want to say it in so many words—reading Chad Ford’s piece after the combine it seemed like he did everything in his power not to call him a total moron. Especially in his more recent interviews he seems to be trying to say the right things and he actually does come across as being a nice kid. I’m sure a lot of it is that he’s been getting coaching on how to deal with the media, but at least he’s saying less ridiculous/arrogant stuff. For some more examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz9TgyxdaYc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gmqD_6hUIg
http://www.nba.com/jazz/video/2010/06/10/whitesidehassanMP4-1343753/index.html
So to me a major question is…where would you draft a 7-foot version of Forrest Gump? Now I realize being poor with the media doesn’t mean you’re going to be a bad basketball player, and obviously you don’t have to be book smart to be smart on the court, accept coaching, work hard, etc. But I think he’s very different from someone like Brandon, who may also have been a poor student and said some extremely cocky things. Whiteside has a long way to go before he’s an above-average NBA player, and you have to decide whether he’s got the brain, the work ethic and (yes) the talent to overcome that. Surpluses in one category can make up for deficits in another, but to be good or great you can’t just be talented.
As little as I know about Whiteside, I wouldn’t question a team picking him late in the first—at that point you roll the dice on talent and worry later about his seemingly horrible intangibles. But if you’re the Bucks you have to decide whether he might just be too slow to grasp NBA systems (aka Stromile Swift Syndrome), if he can motivate to learn the game and get better, and if he can deal with the on- and off-court pressure of being a star in the NBA. The Bucks should know that much better than I do, but it just seems like those questions apply to Whiteside more than any other player being considered at 15.
Contrast that with Brandon, who was sometimes arrogant but it always came with charisma. He was a showman but also a gym rat, and it translated to the court—he led Oak Hill to an undefeated season as a junior, then carried a young team as a senior and was generally considered the best player in the country. You could see him leading an NBA team….I can’t say the same of Whiteside.
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I must say I dont mind little bit of over confidence in a kid...........
that can get knocked outta him pretty soon with the big boys……its the determination to get back up that im interested in…….heck the 15th pick is a stretch though because you figure there will be some decent guys still around….but if Whiteside falls past there he might make some GM look like an absolute genius…….If you have two picks in the first and Whiteside is on the board and you pass I think that is stupid
Right on, Frank!!
I fully agree!!
I think one thing people might not be considering is just how much stock the Bucks are putting into character & chemistry – and I beleive it will actually be a BIG factor into whom they draft.
Here’s a few dudes with high character [by all accounts] that could be available at #15
Ed Davis, G Hayward, X Henry, E Udoh, L Sanders, J Anderson.
I left Babbitt & George off the list, because I feel they’re lottery picks, and I think Davis could be the big that slips.
Gastonia, NC and Marshall aren’t exactly high profile places and I’m sure he feels like this NBA draft is the most high profile experience of his life so rightfully, he’s nervous. It doesn’t help that he’s getting so much negativity from his interview reviews either I’m sure for relief of the stress.
I think what matters in his workout is if they feel he has strong desire to work hard and be successful on the court moreso that just letting his god given size and talents get him by. If he at all shows signs of being a ‘gym rat’ pick him. He’s being mentored by Hakeem the Dream…thats a good sign.
Whiteside
Are we drawing far too many conclusions on this kid? In the interviews, he definately seems unsure about verabal communication, but he also appeared polite. In the interview with Warrirors announcer Jim Barnett, Whiteside repeatedly refered to Barnette as “sir.” Again, not tons to go on, but we have to remember that he would not be counted on to “lead” the Bucks; we already have those guys.
We constantly throw out the “maturity” card when we evaluate these kids. But some of these kids are barely 20. How many “barely” 20 years do you know are all that mature?
Just beggin the question here …..thanks
Tom
It's all relative
I agree we’re not dealing with the finished product with these kids, and I certainly don’t expect them to be extremely well spoken or very polished in media situations. Still, if you sound like the dumbest kid in a room full of 19 to 23-year-old basketball players then I’m worried about you, especially if there are additional concerns about work ethic and basketball IQ. You can be dumb as rocks and still outwork everyone, so .
Whiteside’s already 21 years old so I don’t think he deserves any more of a free pass than these other guys. Fortunately I don’t think you need as much bball IQ to be a big man vs. a point guard, but I feel a lot better listening to Udoh, Sanders and pretty much everyone else than Whiteside.
by Frank Madden on Jun 21, 2010 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions
No Wunderlich ...
Let’s face it guys. We’re not working these guys out for Rhodes Scholarships. There are several current NBA players, some even stars, that sound dumb. He seems to be unsure about his verbal skills. Ok, fine. I think fans get hung up on the stupidity thing, I really do. Luke Babbit didn’t sound all that smart, but he is white and probably gets a free pass for being so.
I'm saying he seems dumb compared to other prospects, not compared to Rhodes Scholars
I wouldn’t be harping on this if he was dumb but had a rep for being a hard-worker who had a high motor…then I think you can get away with the IQ issues. It’s not like I’m not expecting any of these guys to manage my 401k fund.
But that’s not what the scouting report says about him…is there anybody else we’re looking at who has a worse set of intangibles? Maybe Cousins, but he’s also a lot more ready to be a productive NBA players.
If you take the guy who’s dumb, lazy, and doesn’t even realize it then let’s not act like it’s just kids being kids. Scott Skiles can’t magically turn all these guys into great defenders (Babbitt) or smart basketball players (Whiteside)…this stuff still matters.
by Frank Madden on Jun 21, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Not saying it doesn't matter
Just questioning anybody’s ability to make such assessments, that’s all. Fans throw out these terms “(intangible”s being one of them), that nobody can really explain. I am not saying the scouts are wrong; I am saying they are not always right either.
Frank, I am not necessarily disagreeing with you. But I get tired of hearing that we" have" to always draft intelligent “nice guys” (not saying you are are). Let’s look at this franchise’s track record the last 8 years or so. We’ve drafted a heap of smart, nice guys. Where has that gotten us?
As for Skiles, well no, he can’t turn every one of these guys into whatever he wants. But only he and Hammonds really know if they “think” they can, right?
Thanks for your thoughts
Tom
Also ....
With more and more real young guys coming out these days, the less likely a team will be getting a finished product, either mentalyl or physically. Sure there are red flags, and scouting reports. But even those have to be taken with a grain of slat, given their ages.
What worries me Frank, he that we once again make the “safe” pick (although last year we didn’t). “Safe” to me means “stay right where we are” and take no chances. Take Xavier Henry. I read that he is one-dimensional or kinda like Michael Redd. That’s scrares the crap out of me.
I think the Bucks are in position in their franchise to take a flyer, or chance, on somebody.
Wow... way to bust out the race card there...
You have found us out… I for one am shielding Babbit from scrutiny because he is white.
Whiteside is a headcase and is supposedly unable to pick up even basketball things very quickly so that is the point people are trying to make….
Hooray for Seraphin!
Don’t think the Bucks will get him but if he somehow slips to the 2nd round tis won’t be that bad of a pick for some team. He’s also not that bad for a late 1st rounder.
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
hmm okay just for a second assume we take Sanders at 15
whats the view on late first round/ 2nd round shooting guards? In this situation im kinda a fan of Jordan Crawford in this case if he falls to the 2nd……of course Id love a guy like dominique jones as third guard in your system but he will be gone by the early 20’s I figure
Crawford is a bit older but he can score and he has the potential to be a decent defender in a good system such as the Bucks, I think he would fit in quite well at the Bucks………itd be a nice selection Sanders/Patterson and Crawford….keep Salmons/Ridnour at fair deals Im happy
Im an unashamed fan of Mikhail Torrance as well but only as late pick
and thats even though I prefer we go for one of Henry Anderson or George because of Salmons situation and our general lack of depth of SG
But Id still hate to pass on Patterson and all this talk of Sanders has me warming up to him
Bucks have seen a ton of late 1st/early 2nd
Have to think one or more of those guys will be available at 37, but some guys like Seraphin seem very unlikely to be there. I also don’t think Seraphin would make us one of the five teams he visits if he thought we were trying to draft him in the 2nd. Not sure if that means they’d be interested in acquiring a late 1st (either by trading down or parlaying their 2nds into a late 1st) but it’s a possibility.
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah fair enoughy
but if they feel Sanders is a stretch at 15 then surely Seraphin is as well so yeah maybe its the old SG/SF with pick 15 and move up and try and grab one of Seraphin/Sanders I actually like that move alot
sorry move up with the two seconds into the first as you suggested
I would be mightily pleased with one of Henry/George/Anderson and then being able to make another pick in the late first and go after Sanders would be great
You said, “hmm okay just for a second assume we take Sanders at 15”
To which I will let you know, per my conversations with Billy McKinney and others in the front office, the Bucks won’t be picking Sanders at 15. He’s a player the team is considering only if they move back in the first round.
Link to my Bucks Beat page on JSonline: http://bit.ly/JSonline_BucksBeat
by BucksBeatPaul on Jun 19, 2010 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Good stuff Paul
Definitely was weird to hear the promise rumor being around Sanders given McKinney said to everyone he would be a “stretch” at 15. Obviously there’s room for posturing, but I’m not sure the Bucks would flat out lie about that sort of thing. And all the mocks have been trending him later in the first round anyway.
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks Frank
Yeah, I’m really not sure how that Sanders at 15 rumor took off like it did, to the point that McKinney felt he had to address it with us on Thursday.
There is certainly posturing that goes on, but when a team’s director of scouting says in so many words, ‘We wanted to look at Sanders in case we move back in the first round,’ it’s pretty difficult to misinterpret that. If McKinney was using the media to create a stir around the league, he would’ve said ‘Yeah, we’re considering Sanders at 15.’ He flat out said it was in the event they moved back.
I’m planning to give Sanders a call on Monday, so I’ll see what he has to say. He’s a real good guy, by the way. I believe Bucks fans would really take to him early on from a personality standpoint. He won me over in that department.
Link to my Bucks Beat page on JSonline: http://bit.ly/JSonline_BucksBeat
by BucksBeatPaul on Jun 19, 2010 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting Fact and Thoughts on Sanders and Whiteside at 15
2009 draft:
Every pick 22-29 was traded and in the 2nd round only 7 teams kept their original pick.
With that said I think if the Bucks are sold on Sanders, they will be able to and should one way or another trade to get him. Either trade down to get him and another piece/pick or trade up with the 2nd round picks. If OKC wants Orton, they’ll almost certainly need to move up. Every team below 15 is considering trading their pick so I think the Bucks could make that happen. Heck MN traded 18 Ty Lawson to Denver for a conditional future first rounder last year. I think the Bucks could handle that if this guy is the future at PF for them.
Whiteside is a pick that I think the Bucks could wisely roll the dice on if he has a good workout for them. If he doesn’t pan out this upcoming season, his trade value will still probably be high because their will be a team looking to risk something for a 7’0" guy with his measurements, athleticism, and potential. Think JaVale McGee who had similar concerns of immaturity and work ethic, but is still coveted as a trade asset by the Wizards and flagged untouchable.
Stephenson I'd take a chance on...
with the 37th pick. … but I want no part of Whiteside – and the Bucks could certainly keep the 15th pick AND pick up Sanders, if they’re that smitten w/ him.
Stephenson
Maybe I’m just old-fashioned or it’s because I am the father of a tweenage girl but I can’t believe no one is questioning drafting Stephenson. I say no thanks.
You mean in the first round?
if anyone’s drafting him it’ll probably be in the 2nd. Which I would not mind.
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 19, 2010 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Very few players in the 2nd round even end up playing
So if you have 3 picks, I’d say go for it.
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 19, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
On second thought...
I was just looking at his bio and you’re right—he’s got some very sketchy stuff. I had thought of him as a ball-hog with a questionable attitude on the court, but it goes beyond that:
“In January 2008, Stephenson was suspended from school for five days and missed two games following an altercation with a teammate.10 In October that year, he was arrested for groping a 17-year-old inside the school.11 He faced a Class B misdemeanor sexual assault charge, and his parents ended the “Born Ready” reality show following the arrest.2"
Given the kind of team the Bucks are trying to build, that might very well be more baggage than the Bucks can stomach. Maybe there’s more to it than the headlines, but I’m OK with passing on him if he’s as sketchy as he sounds.
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow
Definitely didn’t know that side of the story. Thanks for the heads up. That might be a bit too far…
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 19, 2010 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
This might be the toughest call for teams
It’s hard enough judging guys on talent alone, but when you bring legal accusations and this other stuff into the equation it becomes that much tougher. I realize at some point there is always a team willing to take a chance on a player if he’s talented enough, but if there are legitimate concerns about a guy I would think the Bucks wouldn’t be the first team to take the bait unless a) they thought the concerns were exaggerated or b) they have a much higher appraisal of the guy’s talents.
by Frank Madden on Jun 19, 2010 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
interesting......does the Senator have any pull in such matters?
ie does he have a unsaid morality clause…..which anyway would be hypocritical since he is a politician and is surrounded by them as well…….by we did take Ruben Patterson for one year…and he was tarnished by the trailblazers craziness that was going on back then?
guess its an individual case by case thing have to look at the kid, his talent, what actually happened to a degree and make a call……obviously it helps if he is ridiculously talented…..but a guy who is middling talent and has attitude/adjustment issues why bother really if he isnt on the team in trying to fix that…..there are plenty of guys who would want an NBA roster spot who have talent and are great workers and bring a great attitude……
I can just picture....
Hammonds going to Senator….so Herb what about Stephenson…..we have a misdemeanor sexual assault, bad attitude etc etc…….the Senator pulls out the chart…..well thats kinda in between Tom Delay and John Edwards on the scale so I think we pass John……
Larry Harris was able to convince Kohl to sign off on Patterson in 2006, but a year later they let Ruben walk despite an excellent season. The talk was that something happened and they decided he would not return.
Since then the Bucks seem to have stamped out the questionable character guys. Best example would be Herb nixing that Zach Randolph deal.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd pass on both Whiteside & Stephenson....
I heard LS had some “off court issues” – but this kid really sounds like trouble. No thanks.
And even if HW had a good attitude – which he does not – he’s still a big risk at pick 15 from a player perspective. No Thanks.
Kurt Thomas will never retire......
even when he is 65 they will wheel him out on the bench and he will just stare down opposition with the crazy eyes…..
actually good question will KT be back I think everyone would love it he came back in a limited minutes role/mentor/coach role……..seems a smart move…..guess it depends on how his body is feeling dont think he can handle many more 30 minute poundings on the block
I think he'll be somewhere next season
No reason to retire when he can still be effective in 10-15 minute bursts. Still an excellent post defender and solid rebounder. Right after the season ended he said his body felt good all year and sounded like he hoped the Bucks would keep last year’s group together. I imagine Hammond will try to find some younger options (we’ll see what happens with the draft), but I’ll take Kurt on a one year deal for the minimum any day.
http://www.nba.com/bucks/news/quotes_0910_100503.html?rss=true
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I read...
that he wants to play for a contender next year, but it dodn’t sound like he was talking about Milw.
It was on the yahoo Bucks team page
I think Speedingtime posted that article where Stackhouse said something similar, but I hadn’t seen any recent quotes from KT. Do you have a link?
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Got it:
There is growing speculation veteran big man Kurt Thomas won’t be returning to the Bucks next season. Thomas, 37, will become an unrestricted free agent on July 1 and apparently will try to latch on to a championship-contending team.
by Frank Madden on Jun 21, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
im not sure about all this hype around Seraphin...especially when he cant work out
I see a guy like Ian Mahinmi as a better option, guy has been in a good system for a couple of years, and will come relatively cheap, run the floor, rebound and block a few shots……..
if youd like a more expensive option I guess Amir Johnson is another good gy
Im warming up to Josh Childress if the price is reasonable, hard to know what Atlanta will do with him anyway though
The funny thing about Amir...
Whenever I read about Sanders I think “hmm, seems kind of like Amir…”
Really wish we had managed to acquire Delfino without giving him up.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
hmm also CNN SI draft had Mikkhail Torrance in the late first round.....damn
I hope he drops to 2nd think he will be a steal, I keep advocating for him regardless
I also like Torrance....
And if they draft a big in the first round, I’d love to see them go after Torrance in the late first/early second.
Isn’t this like the 3rd year of the Bucks crush on Josh Childress???
Informal poll
You have Udoh, Babbitt, Hayward, Anderson, Sanders, and Whiteside available—who do you take?
Any of them...
except Whiteside.
I really like all the players you listed [except HW] and I even think Hayward would be a solid pick – Skiles would utilize his skills, and put him in a position to succeed. A player with his IQ & shooting touch can be a big help off the bench.
All that said….. the ONE guy that REALLY intrigues me is Udoh….. if his shot-blocking tranfers to the NBA, the Bucks would have the best 1-2 shot blocking punch since Duncan/Robinson…… the same also applies with Sanders
Not too many players would dare drive the lane with a combo like that waiting for them
I ask because we're doing a mock for Ridiculous Upside...
I also am leaning towards Udoh, simply because he seems like a safe pick who positionally meshes well with the current roster. No one thinks he has star potential and his age really hurts, but he’s also been the highest rated guy on pretty much everyone’s draft board out of that group. If I knew some of the other guys well enough to feel strongly I might be more willing to roll the dice on a guy like Babbitt, but I always get a bit nervous about guys whose primary skill is scoring.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
in this order Udoh, Anderson or Sanders depending on what you want, Whiteside or Babbit....was there anyone else?
Babbit dude is a dead on ringer for Morrison……..but to be fair he is more athletic Id like Babbit/Hayward as late 1st rounders or 2nd round at 15 I say stay away same with Orton
Babbitt's more athletic and younger
I think he’s also a better pure shooter—Morrison never shot 50% from the field or even 80% from the line while at Gonzaga. Babbitt’s just lights out and he has the size to be a mismatch guy, though he brings with it the “who does he guard?” question. The Grizz site compared him to Jeff Green which I think is a very interesting comp. They’re very similar in size/athleticism and are both good ball-handlers for their size. Green’s not nearly the shooter but I think he was considered to have good defensive potential coming out of college. I think Green is kind of overrated but I’d be very content to get that type of guy at 15.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Udoh, hands down.
Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!
by Big Crazy Dave on Jun 21, 2010 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Right on, my man
But it sounds like there’s a good chance that Udoh could be gone at 15
I’m predicting Ed Davis is the lottery “lock” that falls – mainly because teams didn’t get to see him develop last year because of his injury – and he doesn’t seem to have the huge potential of a Whiteside or Sanders
But he very well could be the next Otis Thorpe. Remember him??? : )
I'll take the next Otis Thorpe at 15...
Davis isn’t available in the mock we’re doing for RU, but I’d gladly nab him if he was. I think we’re going to go with Udoh ahead of Babbitt, though the other guys I listed are also available.
Thorpe was a beast
Saw him play a lot of college hoops (Syracuse fan) and he was one of those “lunch pail” type guys that you would love to have on your team. I’d be glad to get anytrhing close to Otis a 15.
He wasn't exactly a 3 point threat : )
But the Bucks have plenty of 3 point shooting – especially if Ridnour and/or Salmons returns.
I’d love to see them get that physical rebounder who can block shots and score 12-14ppg – and there seems to be a few of those in this draft.
okay so shall we be kind to Babbit and say a more athletic Kyle Korver.......I can picture that
Yeah I think Davis has too many skills to fall to 15 really……but I think we’ve added the numbers and somone has to fall to 15 that the Bucks would like to pull the trigger on despite targeting other players…….Davis, Udoh……Patterson maybe hard to gauge what the scene is with him I thought he would jump up the boards but he hasnt really
nice Otis Thorpe, PJ Brown, Antonio Davis, Dale Davis, Buck Williams type of guys are always great to have……if the Bucks could pair that type of guy with Bogut that would be super
i know it means very little but DE has him as a potential Al Horford..........
my dream pairing Bogut & Tito……dude Ed Davis all the way
Makes sense...
If Udoh & Babbitt are both available, I’d think the Bucks go w/ Udoh, as well.
And I like your Babbitt/Morrison comparison….. you’re right on the money, as usual!!
Babbitt was a McDonals all-american in HS – you have to be a REALLY good player to get that invite….. people seem to forget that.
If Babbitt went to a bigger college, I think he’d be a LOCK for the lottery.
I’d still rather have Udoh or Davis, though : )
wasnt really sold on Udoh....bit wary of his age and how limited him impact may be in the Pro's
still he should be solid enough and with Bogut would give the Bucks two of the better passing big guys in the league and his skill set fits pretty nice with Bogut in that he can stroke that mid range shot a bit
Sanders....
I just read that Sanders didn’t start playing organized basketball until his junior year in HS!!
Given that fact, and the steady progress he made each year at VCU, I no longer think he’s a reach at #15 – he has all the physical gifts in the world, and is supposedly a high character guy.
Maybe Skiles taking him out to dinner isn’t a smoke screean after all ; )
It’s quite possible that in a few years, people will be looking at him as one of the steals in the 2010 draft.
Thoughts???
Sanders...
Victor S,
May I ask where you read that information? Was it the story I wrote on him on my JSonline Bucks Beat page? I’m hoping so :)
It was his sophomore year in high school that he started playing, not his junior.
He definitely progressed quickly.
Link to my Bucks Beat page on JSonline: http://bit.ly/JSonline_BucksBeat
by BucksBeatPaul on Jun 20, 2010 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Depends on the guy...
Remember when Joe Alexander was drafted and the Bucks kept bringing up how late he started playing organized ball? Similar kind of story…some guys keep developing, some guys don’t. I would guess a big man like Sanders probably has a better chance of continued development simply because he had such a late growth spurt and it’s probably taken him a while just to feel comfortable with his own body. Watching him play you notice not just the length, but also how enormous his hands are.
The irony of the excuses made for Joe is that Luc also didn’t start playing organized ball until he was of high school age—yet he never really improved his numbers at UCLA (anyone else remember when he was getting lottery buzz as a freshman?) and has been pretty much the same guy since he got to the Bucks. I love Luc, but the diminishing returns kicked in pretty early with him and I’m not sure if he’s ever going to be much more than he is now.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
I couldn't agree more....
To me, the BIG difference between JA/Sanders is size….. and Sanders seems to know that his calling card will always be defense/rebounding – IMO, Sanders is less of a risk than JA was.
I also love Luc – but aside from being a classic “tweener” – he has NO offensive skills, and doesn’t seem to be developing any, anytime soon. I think the honeymoon is over w/ him as the starting 4, and he will come off the bech, as needed.
I think Luc is a bit underrated around the hoop
Most people focus on his outside shooting, which hasn’t progressed at all. But for an undersized guy he has solid footwork around the hoop, uses pump fakes and up/unders to get around bigger defenders…62% shooting around the rim not too far behind Bogut 65%.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok...
But he still takes few shots inside, and I just don’t see him ever being a legit post scorer.
Maybe his footwork is good, but that 62% shooting around the hoop is not from drop steps, or up&under moves……
He's also assisted on it 53 percent of shots around the rim
Which isn’t that bad, really. It’s better than Pau Gasol and Amare for starters. But he takes such few of them, and a lot of them are on the offensive glass like you said, so it probably doesn’t matter.
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 21, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions
my fun will be watching Kahn draft Wes Johnson and he turns into the next Ed O'Bannon
apologies to Wes Johnson just a little dream of mine
personally Id let Salmons walk now……Id look at guys like Morrow, Childress but so will alot of other teams I guess
my thing is..........
at least we have some depth at PF with Prince/Ersan……sure they may not be perfect but they have their strengths and we can afford to hold with them, look for a decent option through FA there are a few particularly Johnson, Gooden etc etc plus a few younger guys floating around that teams may be willing to part with
meanwhile if we dont draft a sg and Salmons leaves well that leaves us with Charlie Bell and thats about all she wrote so that need is more pressing in my view plus we can lock in a guy hopefully with BJennings that secures our back court for a few years……..add in a guy like Childress or Morrow and thats a decent set of guys we have
Point Taken but....
I think we stink on the back line when Bogut is out. A nice 4 that can maybe play 5 would really help, and I think if we really want Salmons we got him.
Bucks offered Salmons that extension, Ridnour isn’t eligible since he’s a FA but Hammond told Mike Hunt last week they want him back…I think Speedtime or someone else may have posted the link.
“We want him back in the worst way,” Hammond said of Ridnour. “We want him back for the player and the man that he is.”
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Damian James???
Would he be too much of a reach at #15???
I actually don’t think so. Although he’ll probably never be a great scorer or passer – his rebounding, defense, and overall energy/effort are very impressive – and those traits alone should get him 10ppg in the NBA.
If you’re looking for a very good role playeroff the bench, he might be it.
He seems to be the “glue” guy or the “hustle” guy that all successful teams seem to have.
To me…. he looks to be a better version of Mbah a Moute – atleast from a scoring/rebounding/effort perspective.
I read something
That compared James to Earl Clark of Louisville/Phoenix. Obviously phoenix is deeper than us and Earl didn’t get a lot of burn but his numbers didn’t wow. Says they are both great rebounders, shaky ball handlers and sometimes settle for threes too much. Might be a good player but is his game the same as Delfino?
different than delfino....
Way more active on the glass & has a non stop motor….. for what it’s worth.
Depending on who’s available at #15, he might be a reach – but he seems pretty safe. Just don’t expect him to be the next Shawn Marion…..
If James was 6'10" with a 7'3" wingspan he'd be a top 5-10 pick
If I recall correctly, Earl’s biggest question mark was his motor, never his measureables. James seems more or less the opposite…a smaller, high motor guy who was much more productive in college. I think McKinney compared him to Mbah a Moute—doubt he’ll be the same type of defender (how many are?) but more skill and similar body type.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Hammonds mojo....
Hammonds drafted high risk/high reward players in the first round of both his Milw drafts….. and he’s 1 for 2.
I REALLY hope he goes with a “safe” pick this year – even if it’s not a sexy pick.
Salmons....
I don’t think 7mil a year is a bad deal.
Even at 30, I’m guessing he still has 2-3 yrs of averaging 15- 16ppg – and if his game really starts to slip, his contract would be very tradeable in its final year. They could even throw in some incentives to sweeten the deal.
Factor in his decent all around game and chemistry with the team, and I’d be fine with 7mil a year for 3-4yrs. It’s not like there’s a whole lot of studs to choose from in next years FA class either.
That said…. if some team offers him 9mil or more for a few years….. let him walk.
Maybe....
But in todays NBA, guys that make less than 10mil a year and contribute ANYTHING aren’t the ones that really kill ya….
Yes… it could turn out to be a bad deal – but by no means crippling. Contracts like Elton Brand, McGrady, Okafor, Redd, Troy Murphy, Arenas, etc…. those are the ones that can set a franchise back for years…..Long term, BIG money….. and Hammond appears to be WAY to smart to let that happen.
It’s not like their offering him 5yrs/50 mil or more.
The OVERALL risk is still not that much, IMO.
They'll probably resign him
And then trade him at the deadline to continue the trend of him not being able to keep a home for more than a few months….
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 20, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
The question is, would he accept that?
My guess would be no. But I’m sure some GMs will get caught up in the big free agent buzz and forget about him.
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 20, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point....
I’m guessing he won’t accept that….. because there will be a team with $$$ to spend that gets snubbed by the first tier FAs…. Miami, NY, NJ, MN, LAC could all use a SG/SF.
and I don’t see Hammond offering much more that 7mil/3-4yrs – ESPECIALLY if they draft a SG in the first round.
They're effectively offering four years, $27 million
Add the last year of his existing deal to the three year, $21 million extension he’s being offered…so that’s a good indicator of how much they value him. That’s the max they can offer in an extension, so I assume they might be willing to go even higher once he’s unrestricted and they can use Bird rights on him. To be honest that kind of scares me…again, it’s the length that worries me.
by Frank Madden on Jun 20, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
the more I think about and the more the glow of the season wears off........
I really hope Salmons gets another deal he cant refuse……..4 years at $27 million I dont see value at all in that at best we get two decent seasons from Salmons and then have to ride out two declining years and I think is game is one that wont age well
have to agree with Frank...
I think id rather pay him 15 million for this next season and be done with him….4 years at around $27 million just seems one of those deals that felt okay at the time but 6 months later you wonder why you gave it out walk away John Hammonds
I can live w/ that....
I still say it’s fairly low risk – even at 4 years.
Just think…. Brand, Redd, Yao, Eddy Curry…. : )
But I wouldn’t pay any more or add any years to it. This should be the final offer.
We're on the clock for RU mock draft!
I assume Udoh’s the pick?
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
Statistical Draft analysis
While lurking at Sactown Royalty, I came across this:
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/6/21/1527880/2010-nba-draft-dalt99-system
It’s very interesting stuff, especially when you consider the results of last year:
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2009/6/21/920247/2009-nba-draft-dalt99-system
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
Real Interesting Stuff
And an “A” for effort for all the work put into that but my seer said I should take it with a grain of salt.
Think we Epke Udoh if he there, pretty solid guy as well
very interesting to see whether we go for a big guy or shooting guard/small forward……….not sure the Bucks like Anderson? if George or Henry is there they will be tough to pass on
Thanks
Been working on a big links post…will be up shortly
by Frank Madden on Jun 22, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Pardon my excitment
But that would be AWESOME! Give away basically nothing for a player of his quality? Yep, I’d do it right away. Too bad it sounds too good to be true.
"We follow people who know a lot more about basketball than I do or pretend to..."
--David Stern
by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 22, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
It would be worth it if only to dump Gadz
But you’re right Speedingtime, might be too good to be true.
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