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Caponomics, Pt II: How much is Luke Ridnour really worth?

With six members of the 09/10 Bucks becoming unrestricted free agents, we all know John Hammond has a busy summer of reloading and refining ahead of him. And while there's little question that his first job is figuring out how to retain (or replace) John Salmons, we've heard almost no discussion about Luke Ridnour so far.

A year ago we probably wouldn't have predicted re-signing Ridnour to be such a priority. In his first year as a Buck, Ridnour had put together another solid-but-unspectacular year, battling through a series of nagging injuries before a broken finger opened the door for Ramon Sessions to deservedly take over the starting PG duties. Many (myself included) were then disappointed when it was Sessions rather than Ridnour who departed last summer, but Jennings' immediate impact quickly erased most of those concerns. And despite outplaying the rookie in the preseason, Ridnour (like any good veteran role player) didn't rock the boat when Jennings was named the starter for the season opener in Philly.    

Instead he let his play do the talking--and it said quite a bit. Healthy for the first time in years, Ridnour didn't miss a game and obliterated his career highs in every shooting category, had the lowest turnover rate of his career, and set a new career-high in PER (17.81) to boot. A career .413/.338/.857 shooter coming into the season, Ridnour shot .478/.381/.907 and showed his worth by leading the Bucks second unit as well as frequently playing next to Jennings late in games.

Back in December we questioned how long his hot shooting could continue, and it did tail off somewhat from the 50.8% he was shooting from the field in December. The Bucks were also better with him off the court (+3.0 pts/100 possessions) than on it (-0.24), but that's probably more a reflection of Jennings' strong all around play than a condemnation of Ridnour's work.  The bottom line is that Ridnour was about everything you could have hoped for in a backup, both in terms of production and willingness to embrace a diminished role. With Jennings firmly entrenched as the starter of the present and future, there's no illusion about how the 29-year old Ridnour would fit in going forward. But that leaves one all important question: how much should the Bucks be willing to pay to keep him?

Star-divide

Can Ridnour's hot shooting last?
Let's start with the more basic question of what we can realistically expect from Ridnour going forward. As we first suggested in December, it would be virtually unprecedented for a guy Ridnour's age (29) to consistently become a lights-out shooter after years of mediocrity. You see one-year aberrations, but they're usually just that--aberrations. In fact, his true shooting percentage had been rather remarkable in that it was so consistently poor over his first six seasons--never worse than 48.2%, never better than 50.9%. If you're not used to looking at TS% stats, consider that the average team shot around 54% this year and the Bucks were third worst at 52%. Yet this year Ridnour's true shooting spiked to 57%, best among any Bucks rotation player, and his scoring rate jumped to 19.4 pts/40 minutes--well above his previous career-high of 14.9 and better than every Buck except Salmons and Bogut.

Much of that was due to his incredible shooting on long twos. After making between 41% and 45% of his 16-23 foot shots the past three seasons, Ridnour buried an insane 57.0% (146/258) from that range this year. Among players with more than 100 attempts, no one else in the NBA made better than 48.0%. Needless to say, that kind of shooting isn't likely to be repeated, and paying Ridnour on the basis of a career season doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Courtesy of the NBA's hot spot data, check out Ridnour's shooting by location over the past two years--notice how dramatically it changes:

Ridnour0809_medium

Ridnour_0910_medium

Ridnour's value: No more than $3-4 million per season for the short term
Ridnour's last deal paid him $6.5 million per season, but that was signed when the Sonics considered him an up-and-coming starter. Those days are obviously long gone. So what's market value for a good backup point guard?

The problem with that question is that the best backups are often either a) young players on rookie contracts (George Hill, Darren Collison, Ty Lawson) or b) high-scoring combo guards still getting paid by the inflated deals they got while they were starters (Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford). That leaves a more modest subset of guys who were actually signed for the purpose of being backups, including the likes of Steve Blake ($4 million), Earl Watson ($2.8 million), Keyon Dooling ($3.56 million), and our old friend Ramon Sessions ($3.67 million in 09/10). Sessions isn't a great comparable since he was signed in part for his youth and upside, and similarly both Jarret Jack and Lou Williams ($5 million) were young and viewed as at least potential starters when they signed their deals. None of those descriptions apply to Ridnour at this point, though his productivity last year was also well above that of guys like Dooling, Blake and Watson.  Still, given his age and the low likelihood of a repeat performance, I'd peg his "market" value around $3-4 million.

I'd also argue against signing Ridnour (or any other backup) for longer than two or maybe three years. Part of that has to do with his age: though Ridnour has never relied much on his athleticism, he's not going to get any better as he cracks the three decade mark. But perhaps more importantly, there's just little reason to sign role players to long-term contracts. While every team wants good bench players, those are the guys you're supposed to find off the scrap heap and through the draft. Good GMs find Luc Mbah a Moute in the second round, get Jerry Stackhouse for the minimum, and bring Ersan Ilyasova back for well below market value. They don't tie up major dollars in their bench.

Not that it isn't tempting at times. After all, how bad can a long term deal be when it's "only" $3 or $4 million per year? After all, if the mid-level exception is close to $6 million, shouldn't that be the average player's value?  Um, no. In a league where superstars rule and make three to four times the average salary, teams can't afford to pay just decent players the MLE. And that doesn't even factor in the risk of signing average players to long-term contracts.

Consider the case of Charlie Bell. A couple years ago Bell was a useful rotation guy, and he still can be useful as someone who plugs holes when other guys get hurt. But you don't pay an NBA player close to $4 million every year for five years just to be a scrappy fill-in when better players get hurt. And for most role players it's not a big leap to go from the useful rotation guy to the dude who can't get into a game. Which is a long way of saying that while Ridnour may be a key cog of the second unit now, things can change very quickly.

That's where short contracts are helpful, because not only do they allow you to avoid deadweight salary in the long term, but they also give you more trade options in the short term. Prime example: the Bucks were able to acquire Salmons simply because they had small expiring contracts that the Bulls wanted. They wouldn't have touched Bell's deal with a ten foot pole, and they probably didn't care too much whether Hakim Warrick and Joe Alexander would ever help them on the court. The important thing was that they had expiring deals. And while all role players prefer long-term certainty, it's only useful for the team if it comes at an appropriate discount.

Thinking short-term: the importance of Salmons and Ridnour
While I'd prefer the Bucks let Ridnour walk rather than give him a four year deal for $4-5 million per season, there are at least a couple legitimate reasons they might be willing to pay him slightly more than we might otherwise prefer. The most obvious is continuity and the pressure to build on this past season's success. Nostalgia and the misplaced fear of "letting talent walk" has led many franchises down the wrong path, but it's understandable for the Bucks to want to retain Salmons and Ridnour as they try to avoid a letdown next year. We know how they fit into the roster and continuity on a good team is generally a good thing.

But an easy to overlook factor is that Salmons and Ridnour can both be re-signed using Bird rights, while free agent replacements would require dipping into the Bucks' limited cap exceptions. Assuming Salmons opts out, the Bucks will have ten players (including their first rounder) under contract for $52 million next year. If the luxury tax is around $68 million, that would give them a $16 million budget to re-sign Salmons, Ridnour, and fill out the remaining 2-3 spots on the roster. Because the Bucks will be over the salary cap, they'll only have the biannual ($2.08 million) and mid-level (likely between $5.5 and $6.0 million) exceptions with which to sign non-minimum salary free agents (other than their own). However, because of Bird rights they can effectively sign Salmons and Ridnour for as much as they want without using any of their other exceptions.

For instance, if they re-signed Salmons and Ridnour for, say, $10 million combined, they would still have $6 million to spend on the final three roster spots. Two of those might be the second rounders for around $1 million combined, which would leave close to the full MLE to sign someone like Drew Gooden. They would also have the BAE, which they could use if the tax level was closer to $70 million, and every team can sign as many players for the minimum as they want.

In contrast, if Salmons and Ridnour both walk, Hammond will have some serious holes to fill in the rotation and only the draft picks and the exceptions with which to do it. In other words, from a cap perspective the money available to sign Bird free agents isn't perfectly fungible--if Hammond wants someone like Josh Childress or Ray Allen to replace Salmons, then he probably needs something close to the full MLE to do it. That in turn means no money to sign someone like Gooden. Hopefully the Bucks' first round pick can contribute immediately, but there's virtually no way someone like Paul George, Xavier Henry, or Gordon Hayward can fill Salmons' 20 ppg shoes as a rookie.

And unless they've found a reliable backup PG in the draft --and personally I'm not a huge fan of expecting a 2nd rounder to play 15-20 minutes every night--they would probably need to use the BAE (or less) on someone like Chris Duhon (a former favorite of Skiles in Chicago), Jason Williams, Watson, J.J. Barea, Anthony Carter, Carlos Arroyo, or Rafer Alston, to name a few. None of those guys are likely to arouse much excitement, but I'm not sure Ridnour will continue to be a cut above those guys in 2010 or the year after, either.

Given his banner season, Ridnour will certainly attract attention this summer, particularly from teams like the Celtics, Knicks, Heat, Lakers, Spurs and Jazz. The Bucks will obviously be hoping none of those teams take an overly optimistic view of Ridnour's future performance, but if they do make him an inflated offer then it's up to the Bucks to think about the big picture. Losing Ridnour isn't the preferred option, but overpaying him would be the bigger mistake.

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Great analysis, as usual.

Ridnours one of those guys that you wish you didn’t have to make a big decision on. You just wish he could BE there, if that makes any sense. He’s not a franchise altering player, but he only helps your team and is something to fall back on.

(And if the Fakers sign him I WILL DIE. They’ll probably give him a 5 year, 10 million dollar contract just because they can. It will only increase their chances of winning the finals from 90 percent to 95 percent….)

"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern

by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 6, 2010 5:31 PM CDT reply actions  

Re-sign him!!

Some reasons to re-sign Luke – even if it’s for a lil more and a lil longer than the Bucks would like:

1 – Letting him walk would mean having to sign a street FA – thus, pretty much eliminating the Bucks chances of getting a Gooden/Haslem type FA – and Luke is better than the FA PGs available.

2 – He’s a medicore starter, but above-average off the bench, and 3-4 mil for your 6th man isn’t crazy money

3 – Jennings is still very young and inconsistent and a quality backup is crucial at the PG position

4 – He’s a good teammate/person – something that is very important to the chemistry-conscious Bucks.

Three years at 3.5mil w/ team option for a fourth year sounds good to me. Maybe add some incentives to sweeten the deal.

Thoughts???

by victor s on Jun 6, 2010 6:25 PM CDT reply actions  

I have always been a Ridnour fan, since his Seattle days setting up Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen. Last year he was everything we needed him to be and it seems Hammond and Skiles really like him.

That said, we cannot re-sign Luke Ridnour for a variety of reasons. He is a liability on defense. While a good distributor, he is mind bogglingly uncreative when he has the ball in his hands. In another year every team in the NBA will have figured out that silly dribble around the basket from the left move he feels is a daily necessity. The mere fact that his presence makes Skiles consider the two point lineup is enough to let him walk. If he is willing to sign for the veteran’s minimum, okay, but he is not worth the kind of money I fear Hammond will use to outbid everyone in a one man auction.

by MadTown Hoops on Jun 6, 2010 7:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Avery fills three needs, backup PG, backup SG and now we don't need Ridnour.

That’s why my draft recomendation is to draft Avery at 15, giving the Bucks that much needed backup PG, who can also play some shooting gaurd. He has length, athleticism, and would be part of a great trio of gaurds (hopefully) to include Salmons, Jennings and Avery.

This is an uograde over last seasons opening day roster of gaurds that included a hobbled Redd, a rookie in Jennings, Ridnour and Charlie “dumb” Bell.

Then get a Big or two in the second round, ala Tiny Gallon and/or Derrick Caracter.

by upnorthfan on Jun 6, 2010 8:02 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree

If Bradley is available and Paul George and Xavier Henry are not, I think Bradley would be a good pick at 15. Paul George and Xavier Henry not being available, means somebody has to fall but if it is a guy like Cole Aldrich, I’d like to see them take Avery Bradley as the backup PG/SG role. Bradley can shoot, he shot the lights out at his workouts. His defensive skills are well documented. I think he can do everything Ridnour can do minus a few years of experience.

The big question would be does Bradley give Jennings a run for his money at PG and how that effects Jennings attitude towards the team. After all, most people thought of Jennings as a scoring PG coming into the draft too.

by FearTheDeer on Jun 7, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bradley is a combo guard and will never be anywhere near the PG Jennings is – even if Bradley really worked on his PG skills, he’ll never have Jennings speed or vision – two things that can’t be taught.

I do like Bradley, and I agree he would help the team, especially if they don’t resign Ridnour – but I feel the Bucks will be better off taking the BPA – and if George and X are gone by pick 15, that means a big man falls to the Bucks, who will snatch him up.

Davis, Udoh, and possibly Patterson and/or Aldrich could slip to the Bucks and I feel they’d take any of them over Bradley

It’s much harder to acquire a quality big man than a combo guard. Maybe not the sexiest pick, but the smartest.

Of course…. Hammond/Skiles might feel Bradley IS the best BPA.

I just pray they don’t take Whiteside!!!

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Woelfel says the Bucks are not bringing Bradley in for a workout

Unclear whether it’s because he doesn’t want to come in or the Bucks aren’t interested…

by Frank Madden on Jun 7, 2010 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it is probably because he thinks he will be off the board before the 15th pick. I like him.

We drafted Yi because Noah didn’t want to come here, and where did that get us? I don’t think that is the case, but even if it were so, draft him anyways.

by upnorthfan on Jun 7, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Avery is a SG who is a poor PG – don’t get me wromg, I like him – but he’s a SG.

I still say Ridnour is better than Duhon, Watson, or any of the other FA PGs – and MOST impotantly, signing him instead of FA PG allows the Bucks to use their MLE on a FA big man

by victor s on Jun 6, 2010 8:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Greast breakdown...

i agree with you pretty much… i don’t want to be locked into another charlie bell contract… if luke wants too much he has to go and we need to get a fill in…

by Superelkman on Jun 6, 2010 8:54 PM CDT reply actions  

"What you said"

To all you who wrote that we cannot over-pay Ridnour, you’re absolutely right.

by tommyr on Jun 6, 2010 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

Just because It’s the truth.

"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern

by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 6, 2010 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I vote for not Chris Duhon.

by Alex Boeder on Jun 6, 2010 10:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Amen :)

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on Jun 7, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

GMs are the true free agents

This analysis was Frankly excellent, especially the point about being able to re-sign Ridnour and Salmons with exceptions, thereby giving ourselves more pre-tax dollars.

The concept of overpaying is fascinating—you’ll seldom know if a player is truly overpaid at the outset of a contract. Yes, in signing free agents, particularly when there’s a bidding war, you’re likely to pay over the market value to attain/retain the player. However, whether that player is ultimately regarded as overpaid depends on three basic factors, the 1st two informing the 3rd.
1. Financial status of the league over time
2. On-court production
3. Movability

I’m sure there are many others, but these 3 come to mind.

Charlie Bell is certainly overpaid now. And, I’m sure some would have made that argument when we outbid Miami to retain him years ago. However, pretend that the league was still flourishing financially and there were expectations that the salary cap would continue to rise annually in perpetuity. We probably wouldn’t think Bell is as overpaid as we consider him to be now. Secondly, his on-court production is below expectations, and getting worse. As a result of both of those, Frank’s right: we can’t move him until he’s expiring, and that hurts the franchise.

Regarding Ridnour, we can say now that $3-4 million per year is fair. However, without considering the 2011 CBA and the potential financial distress that the league will be in over the next 5 years, it’s quite difficult to know whether we’ll think $4 million in year 3 of the contract is really worth it. My guess is that figure will be well above the market value of him at that time. Having said that, if he’s contributing and we can acquire him through exceptions, then maybe that’s not a big deal. And, I haven’t explored the other FA acquisitions we could get for a PG, so it’s hard for me to judge whether resigning him is ill-advised.

I personally favor re-signing him for 3-4, million and years. And I hope other teams will be conservative with their spending on a back-up PG. The only time to excessively splurge for roll players, in my opinion, is when you’re really on the cusp of winning a championship—which unfortunately, the Bucks are not.

And to victor s, if Ridnour is our 6th man moving forward, we’re not going to be nearly as good a club as we all hope (and think) we can be.

by Bretymology on Jun 6, 2010 11:20 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I always prefer shorter contracts for bench guys who aren’t getting better. One year is best, two years is OK, three years is…well, I hope there’s a team option or some NG’ed amount in there….

by Frank Madden on Jun 7, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

I love what Ridnour brought to the table this year.................

but you dont want to make the mistake of over paying and locking down guys who are coming off the bench, and especially at Ridnours age and his poor history of injuries

also whilst Id like him back as a solid reserve…..alot of stuff has to do with opportunity and if the chance of for minutes is there you can probably find a guy to fill them and contribute and sometimes offer something different to the team, and most probably at a cheaper price so Im not too worried if Ridnour leaves

having said that Hammonds/Skiles seem to value his role, and fair enough, so they hopefully get something done and if they dont well the sun will still come up tomorrow

by ILIKEBJ'S on Jun 7, 2010 1:59 AM CDT reply actions  

Bretymology -

If Ridnour isn’t the teams best bench player next year [provided they dont get jason terry or someone like him] – then who’s gonna be the teams best 6th man?

Ersan? – maybe but prob not
Luc? – even if they draft and/or sign a real PF, Luc is not your teams best 6th man
draft pick? – maybe they hit a home run on a draft pick, but that’s a big maybe

If you don’t resign him. you have to get a FA, none of which are as good as him, and would greatly hurt the Bucks chances of using their MLE on a FA who could really help.

I’m not saying Ridnour is Vinny Johnson – but given the circumstances, he makes the most sense to me. I’d love for him to sign a short deal, but 3 or 4 yrs at 3 or 4 mil isn’t a killer contract for a good bench player. Redd’s contract is a killer – Gadz – Bell…… but I could live with 3 yrs – 10 mil.

He’s also a great insurance policy if BJ were to get hurt.

So, Bretymology…… who will be better for them off the bench than Ridnour? If not Ridnour, what do you propose?

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 11:10 AM CDT reply actions  

I am not a fan of giving him more than 3 years at a modest amount...

Ersan would easily be the best player off the bench… he already provides a ton of energy, defense, rebounding, and stretches the floor as a 3 or a 4…

Why not sign a Euro FA for modest contract who is young and only going to get better…

-Bo McCalebb(http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bo-McCalebb-525/)
“A tiny guard in terms of height (6-feet might be a reach), but built like a pile of bricks, McCalebb is a scorer first and foremost, who plays mostly off the ball. He’s an explosive guard, with an outstanding first step and terrific quickness in the open floor. Despite his diminutive size, he has no problem finishing strong at the rim, often with a powerful two-handed dunk. He’s a very high energy player with a terrific activity level, as his near-seven rebounds per game as a junior would indicate. "
Also very active defensively and gets a lot of steals… sure a little small but I’d rather get a guy like this who is only 25 and still improving plus has some seasoning in Europe rather than a guy like Ridnour who had a flukey season…

There are a handful of other guys that can play backup minutes playing in Europe right now so that is something to consider…

Jannero Pargo, Sundiata Gaines, Chris Duhon, or Acie Law wouldn’t be bad cheap signings if Ridnour demands too much… Duhon is just an overall solid vet, Pargo would provide solid scoring off the bench, Gaines would be an energy guy with upside, Law has “potential”

by Superelkman on Jun 7, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it’s a close call, just because of the position Ridnour plays.

I will say the Bucks would have been screwed if BJ got hurt and Ivey or Bell were the backup – while if Ersan got hurt they’d be in better shape with K Thomas/Gadz. Yikes!! Scary thought, regardless

But I do agree with you about Duhon. The other guys you mentioned… not so much.

And I also agree about the $$$ and length of resigning Ridnour. I say 3 years, 10mil – at the most!

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I really like McCalebb

Hugely impressed with his game (and progress, especially in terms of leadership and game-management) this season. I think it may be in his best long-term interests (from a developmental perspective) to stay another season in Europe playing big minutes in a prominent role, but if he wants to try his chances in the NBA immediately, then I’d rather see the Bucks signing him than some other team.

by Joana on Jun 7, 2010 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

opportunity.......

its kinda funny to think with new Orleans Byron Scott hangs onto his job, Chris Paul doesnt get hurt, Jeff Bower doesnt take over as interim coach and the guys he drafted as GM dont get the minutes to show what they can do…….

Darren Collison & Marcus Thornton who were basically nailed to the bench under Byron Scott had pretty great rookie years after taking over after Paul got injured and Bower gave them so burn time out of need for sure but they put up some startling performances and numbers

just mention that again in regards to Ridnour, why Id like him back but why also I think you dont go throw the kitchen sink money and years wise at a bench guy….when with a bit of luck and planning you can do something to cover and maybe even surprise yourself with a rookie

by ILIKEBJ'S on Jun 7, 2010 3:31 PM CDT reply actions  

agreed... can't break the bank for backups...

pay your stars and build them a moderately cheap supporting cast

by Superelkman on Jun 7, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hear ya, my man – and you’re correct – but just remeber that Collison & Thorton are the exception. You usually don’t get that kind of production from rookies who were picked in the 20s and 50s in the draft.

and Byron Scott is a tool….

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 3:50 PM CDT reply actions  

true though this whol year was pretty good for rookie impact

but I suppose in terms of play off teams the guys that stood out were Jennings, Wes Matthews and Dejuan Blair………Matthews wasnt even drafted and Blair we all now dropped because of injury concerns so it does happen

but doesnt have to be a rookie, unheralded FA, D league stand out……….easier said than done true but its basically hold the fort for 15-20 mins, dont F*** up, hit a few shots, play some D……Ridnour was solid this year no doubt

still think the Bucks and Ridnour get something done regardless and you know when BJ was having an off spell Skiles could yank him and always have Ridnour to play it out but Im going to be positive and figure that wont be required as much this upcoming season

by ILIKEBJ'S on Jun 7, 2010 4:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Also, congrats to John Hammond

For being recognized by his hometown in a great way: http://www.nba.com/bucks/video/2010/06/07/pbhammond100606-1340338/index.html

"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern

by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 7, 2010 5:10 PM CDT reply actions  

Very good post

Fully agreed.

Personally I think the Bucks should be willing to endure giving a step back next season for the sake of preserving flexibility for the near future. It would be nice to sign Ridnour only for the kind of contract that would be movable even if he’s having a down season, ditto for Salmons – say a $7 millions/2 year contract for Ridnour. More than that and I’d rather let him walk and sign some cheap leftover like Duhon or Roger Mason to a cheap contract.

by Joana on Jun 7, 2010 6:42 PM CDT reply actions  

I could live with that, and I’d also consider one year and close to $5 million just to stay flexible in 2011—especially if Salmons walks and we have a lot of room under the tax that we can’t use (since we only have the MLE/BAE).

by Frank Madden on Jun 7, 2010 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Joana -

I agree with your logic, but disagree on two fronts:

1. – The fan base in Milw soured on the Bucks after the G Karl era, and rightly so – and having success this past year really raised hopes/expectations for next year. Fans won’t be happy w/ a .500 season… right or not. Hammond has to find a way to atleast match this past seasons success without compromising the future. A tall task indeed.

2. Holding out for lots of cap room 2011/2012 doesn’t benefit small market teams like the Bucks. Marquee free agents simply don’t sign with teams like the Bucks, Pacers, Kings, Bobcats, etc…. and the 2011 FA class isn’t anything special. Carmelo is the big prize, and he prob won’t leave Denver, let alone come to Milw. – which leaves guys like Caron Butler, Troy Murphy, Brendan Haywood, etc [im sure im missing a few]…. some good players, but no all star/MVP type guys

So…. not to beat a dead horse, but slightly overpaying Ridnour makes sense to me. 3yrs w/ a team option for a fourth for 3-4 mil a year. Do it!!

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 8:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Better use of cap space is probably a trade

I agree with Victor that the 2011 cap space isn’t likely to fetch a big name free agent, and in general it’s very tough to spend a lot of money wisely in free agency…easy to fall into the trap of spending it because it’s there (a la Bobby Simmons in ’05, Dumars signing Gordon/Villanueva last summer).

What’s more interesting is the chance it gives you to make more creative trades. For instance, you find a team in the tax desperate to dump a contract—like Marcus Camby a couple years. We’re also hearing rumors about Philly looking to move salary and potentially even using the #2 pick to do it. Would you do something like #2/Brand for #15/Ilyasova? Or Iguodala for next to nothing? I think Philly would be foolish to do the former—how many chances do you get to draft a potential superstar?—but it’s been implied they might consider deals for the second pick that would rid them of Brand’s ugly contract. And if they get Turner, then Iguodala suddenly becomes a lot more expendable. Those deals aren’t possible for us now, but it’s illustrative of what kind of opportunities might be available going forward.

by Frank Madden on Jun 7, 2010 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Using your argument, Signing a guy Like Butler isn't a bad idea

He has been an all-star, would be a home-town hero, and would be the tough, heady, swingman we are looking for.

Go Beer, I mean Bucks

by Take Back Our Bucks on Jun 8, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind them sitting on the cap space either

If signing someone like Butler means you’re capped out for a few years then I wouldn’t get too excited about it. But he definitely fits the bill in a lot of the other ways you mentioned.

by Frank Madden on Jun 8, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think FAs signs with whichever team puts the best offer on the table

That’s why the Bucks were able to sign Bobby Simmons.

It goes this way:
1. Money
2. Money
3. Money

Tie-breakers
1. Role (especially for younger players who want to maximize their future earnings)
2. Winning / Losing
3. Big/small market
4. Good/bad weather

I do agree that there aren’t a lot of enticing FAs in 2011 though – so I’m aligned with Frank’s position that it’s mostly about facilitating trades.

Plus, when I mention flexibility is just not from a salary standpoint but also because having players who overproduce their salary gives you more options in the future.

Point 1 is more complicated to deal with indeed. I think that’s something Hammond will have to talk Kohl and Skiles into. However, I think it’s possible for the Bucks to field a team that can compete for the playoffs even if they don’t re-sign Ridnour and Salmons. I don’t want the Bucks to go back to the 30 wins, lottery bound teams – that would be bad for the development of Bogut+Jennings.

Essentially I think the Bucks should do what they did last season with Delfino, Thomas or Salmons – buy low. If you somehow can flip Redd into a legit All-Star level player like Iguodala + draft a quality starter then it’s time to start overpaying for role-players regardless of their age/upside just for the sake of giving you that additional inch of quality that can put you on another level.

by Joana on Jun 10, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Delonte West

Just for the sake of discussion, let’s say somebody overpays Ridnour and the Cavs are willing to give West away for basically nothing. Do you pull the trigger and hope Skiles can keep him in order? Or is he too big of a headache to even bother?

by Frank Madden on Jun 7, 2010 9:27 PM CDT reply actions  

If we can replace his brain....

No, but seriously, I think he’s worthy of a starting role, and is probably going to get his bucks (no pun intended) from somebody who needs a starter. Of course, the quality of point guards has dipped up over the past few years so anything is possible.

"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern

by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 7, 2010 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, let me rephrase that.

He’d be a good starting point guard for a BAD team.

"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern

by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 8, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

West would be a very good combo-guard off the bench. I’d run that risk.

Not sure if we can get him for basically nothing though. What kind of deals are you thinking off?

West+Jawad Williams for Gadzuric works?

West for Bell?

West+Telfair for Gadzuric?

I’d do any of these trades.

by Joana on Jun 10, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Frank – good stuff as always, but I wouldn’t touch Delonte West – especially considering how chemistry-conscious the Bucks seem to be these days – which is a good thing. If they can’t strike a decent deal w/ Ridnour, they’d be smart to go after a Duhon-type FA, and look to find a long-term backup to BJ down the road.

Interesting tidbit for ya – New Orleans is WAY over the cap, and Houston is slightly over the cap, and both teams only have their one 1st round pick in the upcoming draft.

 I try not to speculate on trades…. BUT….. the Bucks have the 37th pick to dangle – you think N.O. or Houston would bite? It seems the players the Bucks are looking hard at will all go in the 8-15 range, putting them in a MUCH better position w/ the 11th or even 14th pick to choose from.

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 9:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Like doing... Things.... with LBJ's mom

 * shivers *

"Why are you behaving like such an American?"
--David Stern

by Jacob Grinyer on Jun 8, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I just assumed that was all BS...

If it’s not then…YIKES. But his gun charges (still not resolved) may be the bigger fear. I think he’s got too much baggage for a team like the Bucks to bother, but he’s definitely a talented guy.

by Frank Madden on Jun 8, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

He’s a wing nut. I’d take Duhon over him anyday.

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 10:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Regarding N.O. & Houston...

I forgot to add that neither team has a 2nd round pick either.

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 10:13 PM CDT reply actions  

I also forgot to add that the bucks would have to swap 1st rounders – but I figured you’d assume that : )

So… the 15th & 37th to either N.O. for the 11th or Houston for the 14th. Both teams struck gold w/ their 2nd rounders last year, and are in need of cap relief, especially N.O.

Wadda you think?

by victor s on Jun 7, 2010 11:06 PM CDT reply actions  

No Thanks

Not the 14th for sure, I’d keep the 37th for that and try for another good 2nd rounder. As for the 11th, depends on who you want and who you think will be there. Being that it’s a pretty deep draft and a lot of guys that proably fit what you’re looking for I would say no.

by CanadaBucks on Jun 8, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

You probably need to have a guy targeted

If the Bucks are in love with someone like Udoh or Patterson and think they’ll be gone by 15 then I think that’s where you make that kind of move. As a fan I always like having more options to choose from, but I honestly don’t know if or how much four spots tangibly helps us—I just don’t have a good enough feel for the guys in the draft, and outside maybe the top five or six it seems like there’s a major drop off in talent. At least that’s my perception given how much movement there has been among mock drafts in the 10-20 range. If you think there’s a jumble of guys all roughly equivalent in that range then it’s probably not worth making a move.

All that aside, I think 11 for 15/37 seems fairly reasonable for both sides, though I’d probably lean towards 15/47. Again, it depends a lot on how deep you perceive the draft to be, both in the lottery and the second round. But the Bucks having two second rounders definitely gives us more room to deal, and I think you’re right that a team without a second is more likely to be interested in adding one.

by Frank Madden on Jun 8, 2010 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Frank Madden for GM if Hammond ever gets fired...

I agree… it is really hard to speculate on these things without actually seeing the workouts, interviews, watching hours of film… if they deem someone worthy of moving up to get I will trust it…

by Superelkman on Jun 8, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I second that call!

I can see the by-line now…‘Buck Madden to take Milwaukee to new heights in the 21st Century!’

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on Jun 9, 2010 1:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ok... how about....

The 15th, 47th, and a 2nd rounder next year [the bucks have two] for the 11th.

N.O. would save almost a half mil because of the 1st round swap, and get 2nd rounders.

by victor s on Jun 8, 2010 12:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Do you make that trade now?

Or are you waiting until draft day to see if someone you have targeted is available at 11.

by CanadaBucks on Jun 8, 2010 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seems like those trades are almost always done on draft day

At this point the Bucks (and everyone else) are probably still trying to figure out who they really want, so I imagine it would happen closer to the draft.

by Frank Madden on Jun 8, 2010 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bucks won’t touch Delonte West – he’s a head case w/ serious baggage.

I gotta think they work out a deal w/ Ridnour.

Also…. be prepared for a big to fall to the Bucks….. because this draft is so heavy on big men, teams in the lottery will reach for SGs & SFs.

That means that X, George, and possibly James Anderson will be gone at pick 15

by victor s on Jun 9, 2010 11:21 AM CDT reply actions  

How does LeBron and other big free agents affect this draft?

I think it’s interesting to think about. Although it depends how many (or IF any) teams drafting before the Bucks are serious candidates to sign a big FA.

by tommyr on Jun 9, 2010 12:07 PM CDT reply actions  

Big FAs

Do you not think the first tier if FAs(LBJ, Wade, Bosh etc.)already or will by draft day know where they are going? And the teams involved as well, and will draft with that in mind unless they go BPA.

by CanadaBucks on Jun 9, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I suppose that's possible

Depends on whether they’re actually going to pick teams together and whether the coaching situations of the major players are all sorted out. If so, then those guys are in a unique position since they know they’re going to get the max, so it’s not like negotiating the deal is all that important.

by Frank Madden on Jun 14, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

first tier has been blown apart really I feel

LBJ & Wade are apart from the rest for me and they cant win it without some very good players around them, Bosch probably at the next level in a Pau Gasol kinda level, then id put the rest in a big group guys who are very good players but get max deals but shouldnt because they wont get to a conference finals even……..Johnson, Boozer, Stoudamire etc

all these guys should realise they cant win it on their own anyway and they really should find the best team that they can win on, they will get paid regardless really………collude away I say :)

LBJ, Wade, Anthony, Bosch have one title between them so they really should be looking to find the best situation for winning

Chicago out of all the free agent destination looks like the best bet simply because you get paired with an Elite PG so thats the best start building blockwise, decent role playing big man in Noah, enough room to move if can rid themselves of a couple of their contracted

also joining Wade in Miami seems appealing great city, no tax right?, good weather

I assume Dallas is an option because Cuban always gets involved in some deal

I guess Houston as well because they have some assets,

by ILIKEBJ'S on Jun 15, 2010 6:12 AM CDT reply actions  

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