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NBA Draft Lottery Study: Part One - PER

Over the course of the next week or so, Mitchell Maurer and I are releasing a study on the relative productivity of NBA Draft lottery prospects and the draft pick slots associated with those picks for the past decade. For the sake of simplicity and ease of inter-positional player comparisons, we opted to use John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating (PER) as our primary vehicle to evaluate player performance in our study. Our ultimate goal is to help demystify the process of reasonably projecting the careers of draft lottery talents. We hope the study will be entertaining, informative, and most of all, the start of a great conversation on the draft, so please think of PER as a convenient tool or a proxy for performance evaluation rather than our final word on the true value of each player.

Our study will be released in three parts. Part One (this article) will introduce PER and raise the most salient issues regarding the strengths and weaknesses of the metric. Part Two will introduce our methodology by analyzing the productivity of the current Bucks roster. Finally, our study will culminate in the massive Part Three NBA Draft Lottery analysis that applies the information and methodology set forth in the initial two posts. Enjoy!

Star-divide

In order to get the most out of our study it is important to understand what PER stat is trying to tell you and what PER cannot tell you. I have compiled the five most important things you need to understand about the strengths and weaknesses of PER as a performance evaluation metric, so let's get the discussion started.

(1) PER takes the events recorded in a traditional box score and attempts to assign value to each of these events to summarize a player’s statistical accomplishments in a single number. In Hollinger’s own words, PER accounts for "positive accomplishments such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls." Although the actual formula is exceedingly complex, the basic point is that the value of these events are informed by Hollinger’s instincts (and probably a proprietary regression model) and then ultimately weighted against corresponding league averages.

(2) The resulting PER value is calculated on a per-minute basis and adjusted for team and league pace (the number of possessions used per game), purportedly allowing for apples to apples comparisons between players with otherwise unequal opportunities. Hollinger normalizes PER values such that the league average in PER is always 15. From there the values can vary significantly. For example, among players with at least 500 minutes in 2009-10, the highest rating was LeBron James (31.19), and the lowest rating was Quinton Ross (3.04). Here is an informal and un-official Wikipedia guide to interpreting PER values:

35.0 - A Year For the Ages

30.0 - Runaway MVP Candidate

27.5 - Strong MVP Candidate

25.0 - Weak MVP Candidate

22.5 - Bona fide All-Star

20.0 - Borderline All-Star

18.0 - Solid 2nd option

16.5 - 3rd Banana

15.0 - Pretty good player

13.0 - In the rotation

11.0 - Scrounging for minutes

9.0 - Definitely renting

5.0 - The Next Stop: D-League

(3) PER values below 15 are not necessarily bad, because sheer durability often has value in its own right in professional sports. For those of you baseball fans out there familiar with the concept of replacement level (in the case of basketball, it is the level of talent readily available to be signed out of the D-league), Hollinger has done an additional multi-season analysis of players who played less than 500 minutes in a season and determined positional replacement levels according to PER. The league average replacement level PER is 11.0, and the position-specific values are:

11.0 for PGs

10.5 for SGs/SFs

11.5 for PFs

10.6 for Cs

(4) PER most certainly does not value defensive contributions fully or properly, because it only takes inputs from traditional box scores (which only record blocks and steals). Hollinger has admitted this is a significant limitation of his model, saying this:

"Bear in mind that this rating is not the final, once-and-for-all answer for a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for players such as Bruce Bowen and Trenton Hassell who are defensive specialists but don't get many blocks or steals… What PER can do, however, is summarize a player's statistical accomplishments in a single number. That allows us to unify the disparate data on each player we try to track in our heads so that we can move on to evaluating what might be missing from the stats."

Therefore, please keep in mind that PER is largely an offensive metric meant to be the start of a discussion on player value, not the final arbiter on the subject. My impression from the comments I excerpted above is that after seeing a player’s PER rating, further discussion and analysis is not merely recommended, it is mandatory. If you like PER for measuring offense, one way to make more complete observations is to use the information available at http://www.82games.com/. The site provides data on the PER of a player’s positional counterpart during their time on the court, so you can get a rough idea of how effective a player is on limiting the offensive production of opponents. However, this counterpart metric is also far from perfect, as it makes an initial assumption in assigning positions to players on the court (ex: who is the Center when Ilyasova and Sanders are on the floor without Bogut or Gooden?), it makes an additional assumption that a PG guards the opposing PG (and so forth), and it cannot account for zone defensive assignments, switches on picks, or the impact of help defense. A small consolation is that the site also provides other valuable counterpart stats such as eFG% and the percentage of shots the counterpart takes close to the hoop.

(5) There is a debate about whether PER inherently rewards shooting. This criticism has been made by David Berri, the author of Wages of Wins, who said the following:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

This feature of PER should not simply be dismissed off hand. Berri believes that PER inherently rewards shooting, and based on those low thresholds the players with higher usage percentage (an estimate of the percentage of team possessions used by a player while he was on the floor) benefit merely from taking more shots than their teammates. For a more detailed study on the issue, check this out.

However, Hollinger has a pretty convincing counter-argument...by which I mean he says Berri has no idea what he is talking about.

Berri leads off with a huge misunderstanding of PER -- that the credits and debits it gives for making and missing shots equate to a "break-even" shooting mark of 30.4% on 2-point shots. He made this assumption because he forgot that PER is calibrated against the rest of the league at the end of the formula.

Actually, if we took a player was completely average in every other respect for the 2006-07 season -- rebounds, free throws, assists, turnovers, etc. -- and gave him a league-average rate of shots, and all of them were 2-pointers, and he shot 30.4%, he'd end up with a PER of 7.18. As long-time PER fans know, that would make him considerably worse than nearly every player in the league.

To end up with a league-average PER of 15,00, the actual break-even mark in this case is 48.5%, which is exactly what the league average is on 2-point shots this season.

So Hollinger says that his PER formula is actually calibrated against the rest of the league to create a break-even point exactly at the actual league average each season. I am inclined to agree with Hollinger, seeing as he created the formula and certainly understands its intricacies better than Berri. It seems pretty clear to me that Hollinger has a reasonable response to Berri, but I felt I should present the debate to you and let you make up your own mind because some people have sided with Berri on this issue, and even the Wikipedia page for PER presents Berri's argument as a valid criticism in a section called "Problems with PER." 

In any case, the question ultimately raised by this final point is how shot-creation should be valued, but I must emphasize that PER is unequipped to answer this question in any meaningful way. A player who creates a decent shot from a desired spot on the court while the shot clock is ticking down to zero has helped his team by doing so, but PER cannot and does not know when shots are taken in such a context. PER gets information exclusively from traditional box scores, but they make no record of context for shots. Box scores do not care when a player gets off a good shot at the end of the shot clock, or when a player mistakenly passes up a layup for a sub-optimal fade away jumper, or even when a player throws up a desperation half-court heave at the end of the half. Because box scores never record this information, PER simply cannot take the context of a shot into account.

Thanks for reading, make sure to check back for parts two and three of our PERfect Draft Study (we're pretty punny, aren't we?), and ignore these five points about PER at your own risk.

Poll
Do you consult PER when analyzing player performance?
Yes, and this article taught me nothing I don't already know.
7 votes
Yes, but now I know more precisely what PER can tell us about player performance.
23 votes
No, but now I know more precisely what PER can't tell us about player performance.
22 votes
No, and this article taught me nothing I didn't already know.
5 votes

57 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 68 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Really good and informative article

However, I’ve never really been a fan of the PER statistic, it tries to do too much all at once. And for prospects and when talking about the lottery, there is a lot of things PER nor any other statistic can measure that are still important.

Who is the better, stronger athlete? That person may not be as offensively polished as a Jimmer Ferdette, but upside and coachability are two things you need to look for in a player. I feel the PER is alright when it comes to analysing NBA players post season, but it does little for predicting the future and even less for college players.

And after all, the draft is all about trying to predict the future.

by 1BuckShort on May 6, 2011 12:35 PM CDT reply actions  

To clarify, I think Mitchell and Steve have mainly used it as a tool for looking back on how players have fared in the NBA

They can provide more detail, but it’s basically a retrospective study looking at how productive players drafted in different positions proved to be once they got in the NBA.

by Frank Madden on May 6, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also short on context

As honestly stated, the formulas are based on current, traditional box scores. Unless every posession was tracked with every main and micro-event of each posession, the total accuracy of any metric is limited.

Bill James of baseball sabermetrics fame has a single “try to encompass everything” metric called Win Shares. Others have their own. But in all cases, context adjustments such as park effects are taken into account. Currently, some organizations (ex. Baseball Infor Solutions) track every batted ball, etc …until basketball reaches that point (and I am sure some are already trying to), any metric is going to be extremely flawed.

That being said, I have studied PER and I think it is a pretty darn good metric. I just wouldn’t use it to build a team or even make trades – not yet anyway.

by tommyr on May 6, 2011 12:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Yep

Using a catch-all stat for the study was mainly a matter of convenience in this case. Basketball is definitely not as well-suited towards catch-all stats as baseball unfortunately.

by Frank Madden on May 6, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

No it is not ...

But in a lot of ways, it doesn’t have to be. The team you play on and the players you play with have a big effect. But I think that applies more to the marginal players, like a Derek Fisher in his career. The superstart or even just a star would excel on just about any team.

by tommyr on May 6, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good points by all

It is an effective tool to use as a retrospective for past draft picks and how efficient a player truly was in a past season. I thought they were going to PER rank the lottery players like the Morris brothers and Kemba Walker and such. I just thought personally that would have offered little insight and the hassle would not have been worth the reward on their end.

But if they are looking at past picks and things like that, I think it is an interesting and worthwhile effort. I just misunderstood the concept.

by 1BuckShort on May 6, 2011 1:56 PM CDT reply actions  

I always wanted to know just how bad Yi & Joe Alexander were

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, you'll just have to wait for part 3

But here’s a teaser: Joe sucked BIG TIME.

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 6, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha spoiler alert folks

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Facepalm in shock!!!!!!!!

Say it ain’t so

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 6, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha I need to know just how bad in numbers though for closure

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Where is Joe these days?

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 6, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Last I heard,

He was in the running for MVP of the NBADL.

Link 1

Link 2

Let’s see if trading him surpasses trading Jodie Meeks in terms of “Dammit, we jumped the gun”-ocity.

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 6, 2011 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

MVP! MVP!

The Artist Formerly known as Speedingtime/Speedy

www.BrewHoop.com

by Jacob Grinyer on May 6, 2011 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Better or worse than Nikoloz Tskitishvili?

I never use a big word when a diminutive word would suffice.

by TheJay on May 6, 2011 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is there worse?

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 6, 2011 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

the gold standard

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Surprisingly,

there were worse picks.

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 7, 2011 6:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

thought we had scraped the barrel with Tskitishvilli....he went top 5 right? struggiling to think of worse

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Only two that I can think of would be

Chris Washburn and LaRue Martin, Martin might be the top because he was first over-all, Buffalo lost the coin flip and settled for Bob McAdoo. The rest of that draft was kind of meh though, although the Bucks did select Dr. J.

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Geez, how?

Jay Williams for not being able to play? Robert Swift for moving into a tattoo parlor?

I never use a big word when a diminutive word would suffice.

by TheJay on May 9, 2011 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

definitely find these articles going through explanations of the statiscal breakdowns helpful

especially so coming from a background in australian sports where advanced stats are pretty much in the primitive stages still

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 2:26 PM CDT reply actions  

I just find it so bizarre (yet interesting and informative)...

…that sports can be so heavily mathematised, analysed, broken down, re-analysed, and generally broken down into every possible statistical element. As BJs says, Oz sports just don’t have anywhere near that level of advanced stats (though the AFL has recently included ‘clangers’ as a statistical measure! Sounds like a Bucks shooter!

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 6, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

) close bracket!

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 6, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

But there's only one stat that really matters

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 6, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

ADJUSTED +/-

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 6, 2011 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

W-L

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 6, 2011 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha clangers is definitely a stat we could apply to the Bucks

what I find interesting is that we dont look more at things like effective possessions in AFL, or tackles, smothers, that lead directly to turnovers, I suppose the coaches have access to these stats and use them alot, but the public still stick to the very basic stats

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is that by chance related to

the famed “”http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/2006/01/word-of-day-smother-chicken.html" target="new">smother chicken"?

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 7, 2011 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

link fail

:(

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 7, 2011 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha smothers is totally a AFL act of craziness, I suppose kinda like a charge but more crazy x100

basically as the guy is about to kick the ball the opposition player dives full length arms outstretched across his foot and ‘smothers’ the ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxOQDa5epVk

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 11:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you guys like the increased use of polls in the articles?

We have made more of an emphasis to add them recently, but what do you guys think? Do they lead to more interaction overall, or do they serve as a substitute for comments? Do you want the polls to be serious or more humorous or a poignant question with a simple yes/no dichotomy? Just curious if you guys have any thoughts.

A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

by Steve von Horn on May 6, 2011 9:54 PM CDT reply actions  

In regards to the polls...

…a little of column a, a little of cloumn b. They are a good way for people to contribute without having to worry about composing a comment open for reply. I like some light-hearted mixed with some seriousness :)

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 6, 2011 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

we need a poll on whether we need more polls.......poetic ;)

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 6, 2011 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Appreciated the review of PER; regarding polls

More serious or light-hearted polls are of interest to me. I am especially interested in polls that repeat over time and can be used to get a feel for how the viewers of this website are changing in the their feelings/opinions about issues related to the Bucks. I have been intrigued by your ongoing poll of how viewers of this website feel about the Bucks. Are you going to present a time series analysis of that poll at some point?

by Southern Marxist on May 7, 2011 12:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Off Topic

Do any of the sharp minds here (IOW, all of you) plan a piece or a series on the precise mechanism by which the Bucks’ total malfeasance at offense has been transferred to the Brewers?

It’s a mystery to me. But the infection is plain to see, and appears chronic.

I wondered if it had anything to do with the lake or the river…

by unklchuk on May 7, 2011 1:11 PM CDT reply actions  

It's the curse of

Laverne and Shirley

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

further explanation please

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Find a rerun of Laverne and Shirley on YouTube

After 5 minutes of watching it, you’ll understand.

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

5 minutes of Laverne & Shirley seems like alot

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

There you go

Proves my point.

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Law of Conservation of Wisconsin Momentum

Packers were way too good this year for the Bucks/Brewers to be relevant. I blame Aaron Rodgers.

by Frank Madden on May 7, 2011 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

In a way,

we ALL blame Aaron Rodgers.

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 7, 2011 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just finished watching the Grizz-Thunder. Two things on my mind:

(1) I now have a new saying to use at the gym playing rec ball…stop “Westbrooking” it. ‘Westbrooking’ – verb, def: single-handedly destroying your teams’ chance to win due to a blatant disregard for game situation, the principles of teamwork, and basic offensive strategy.

(2) Westbrook can no longer have PG listed as his position…as far as I’m concerned they have two SGs when he’s on the floor. Yikes was that 4th quarter brutal.

A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

by Steve von Horn on May 7, 2011 7:24 PM CDT reply actions  

He's got the tools, but no sense of the game

It’s like he was built instead of grown.

"Finished putting together an Excel spreadsheet at work? BELT. Finally managed to open that uncooperative jar of mayonnaise? BELT. We're all champions in our own ways, my friends." - Frank Madden, BrewHoop

by Mitchell Maurer on May 7, 2011 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good thing we have Jennings, eh Steve?

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jennings would have the good sense to get Durant the ball...this much I know.

As Mitchell said, they just built Westbrook a little bit wrong. He needs a software update or something.

A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

by Steve von Horn on May 7, 2011 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

He needs to be upgraded to a whole new version

I also think Scott Brooks is also part of the problem.

The Artist Formerly known as Speedingtime/Speedy

www.BrewHoop.com

by Jacob Grinyer on May 7, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brooks needed to play Westbrook off the ball more down the stretch.

They had a few possessions in the overtime that resulted in an easy dunk, a foul, and a kickout jumper…all initiated by James Harden. Not sure why Harden was out of the game during the 4th quarter meltdown (who is Sefolosha needed for against the Grizz?), so Brooks is at fault too. But I’m sure he wasn’t telling Westbrook to take off-balance pull-up jumpers early in the shot clock without passing the ball.

I expect to see Harden running some of these possessions if Westbrook can’t turn the green light off.

A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

by Steve von Horn on May 7, 2011 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thunder lose........damn that means we miss out on an article on how good Perkins is for the Thunder

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Durant didn't impress me either

Allen was in his shirt and all he looked for were off-balance pull ups from 18 feet or longer. Thought the play-calling was very unimaginative on Brooks’ part, which I think made Westbrook look that much worse.

by Frank Madden on May 8, 2011 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

OWWWWWW!!!!!!!

Just saw Rondo totally hyperextend his elbow v the Heat! Almost went all the way back the wrong way….

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 7, 2011 8:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Scratch the C's from the Championship hunt if it's bad...

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 7, 2011 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is the series that i wish

They both could lose

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Haha! I know exactly what you mean.

It comes down to who you dislike the least between the 2. Not easy to do! I’m praying for a Hawks/Grizz Finals!

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 7, 2011 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

But if you want to see something really bad

Go to you tube and look up Joe theisman breaks leg

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ow!

Try this one, only happened a week ago in Perth…cringe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4d7m6O6LTU

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 7, 2011 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

On a positive...Rondo seems to be fine now! :)

Squad Six is to the Bucks what beer is to Milwaukee (or anywhere else for that matter)... the catalyst for you doing dumb things in public and not feeling self-conscious!

by Big Crazy Dave on May 7, 2011 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't know bones could bend like that

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

that was pretty bad, not compound fracture bad but pretty bad

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

And good because

I hate Boston less than i hate Miami

"You play anybody and if they shoot 70 per cent from three, they're going to be tough to beat." More wise words from Chris Bosh

by CanadaBucks on May 7, 2011 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

geez the knee was horrific Dave.........

not nearly as much as the final pic that showed the Saints lost to Adelaide by 19 though

That," says LeBron, "is for everyone that watches me play. They witness something special. You're all a witness.

by ILIKEBJ'S on May 7, 2011 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

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Two Recent Story Links
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All In On The 8th; Plus Draft Stuff, And John Salmons
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Ekpe Udoh
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The CB 2012 Mock Draft 1-14 First Edition

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Managers

Frank_small Frank Madden

Capture_small Alex Boeder

Editors

Milwaukee_bucks_modern_logo_small Dan Sinclair

Bruv__316x634___316x634___316x634__small Steve von Horn

Authors

Rubberducky_small Mitchell Maurer

Front_small Jacob Grinyer