Brew Hoop Podcast # 11: Jon Leuer Scouting Report
by Steve von Horn on Sep 19, 2011 10:55 PM CDT
in Podcasts
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PrintAre you becoming numb to PR-laced lockout stories and rec league highlights? [Nods head slowly] Do you yearn for some good old-fashioned NBA talk? [Makes sky point gesture] Are you curious to learn more about the talents of recent Bucks draft picks Tobias Harris and Jon Leuer? [Nods head vigorously and falls off swivel chair]. Well, if so, then I can confidently say that Brew Hoop has something special for you. We are proud to present the First Annual Todd Day Memorial Bucks Draft Pick Forecast!
In this episode, Frank Madden, Dan Sinclair, and Steve von Horn offer a long form scouting report on Milwaukee Bucks second-round draft pick Jon Leuer. In Podcast # 10, we analyzed the most salient questions associated with first-round Tobias Harris. Now we bring the same in-depth coverage on former University of Wisconsin star, and 40th overall pick in the 2011 NBA draft, Jon Leuer. Will his skills translate to the NBA game? How will his role develop with the Bucks? Take a look and take a listen to get our thoughts on these subjects and much more.
We specifically cover the following topics in detail:
- Can Jon Leuer have more success at the NBA level than recent Badger products like Brian Butch and Greg Stiemsma? Bo Ryan's swing offense and man-to-man defense provide a strong foundation for good fundamental play, so we explore how college coaching has prepared him to be a solid role player in the NBA. Furthermore, we cover why people should look beyond the slow pace of Badger basketball and B1G basketball in general.
- Does the fact that Leuer is a four-year college player mean he simply wasn't good enough to go to the NBA on his own terms, or is there still hope that he can continue to improve his game?
- Is Jon Leuer deceptively athletic? Short anwer: yes.
- What position will he play in the NBA? Can he hold his own as a stretch-PF coming off the bench? In the video above, Jon compares himself to Ryan Anderson, but we take time to try and distinguish him from a stretch-PF more familiar to Bucks fans, Ersan Ilyasova. If the fellow former second-rounder wants out, can Leuer step in and fill his shoes?
- Leuer has not yet signed a contract with the Bucks, and is currently playing overseas in Germany for the Skyliners Frankfurt, but the Bucks own his NBA rights. When will his first real opportunity with the Bucks arise and how can he break through the PF logjam? If you want an update on how Leuer is playing overseas, he posted 14 points and 4 rebounds in a recent exhibition game and had 18 and 25-point performances in other exhibitions.
- Does drafting a former Badger do anything to grow the fan base?
Listen to this episode on your smartphone by clicking here (or right click to save as an mp3).
If you like what you hear, or want to take us with you for some reason, keep in mind that our podcasts are also accessible on your smart phone and iTunes (or you can search "brewhoop podcast" in the iTunes search bar on your smartphone or computer to reach our feed, where you can subscribe for free).
*Note: The instrumental song used in the background is called "My Nightmare," produced by The Beat Hero, available at www.thebeathero.com, and downloaded pursuant to a non-exclusive usage license.
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I thoughty he would have gone in the first round
I remember him in Wisconsin. He was a pretty decent player. He was probably one of the better post players in the country. The Bucks have a potential steal in this home-town find.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Sep 20, 2011 7:37 AM CDT reply actions
56:54
Why did I listen to the whole thing? Almost an hour on 2nd round pick Jon Leuer? That has to be overkill. And it may be fair to say you gentlemen made your points somewhat less succinctly than you do in print. So why did I listen? Why did I eat the whole thing? What’s that you say? It was something that made a noise in the silence of the lockout?
As a group, you did a fair amount of CYA (although I don’t think that was your intent; it’s just recognition of the many unknowns). Leuer is a 2nd round pick (we should expect a minimal initial impact). At the same time, Leuer has some sneaky-good non-obvious qualities that could make him an early contributor. Possibly a replacement for Ersan. Or not. Could all be true, but does it add up to a definitive statement?
I don’t know if definitive statements make sense, but they’re expected of sports pundits. Could you have more precisely judged Leuer? He was chosen, what?, roughly 40th in the draft.
Based on talent and potential, where would you rank him? If you say 40, that characterizes him as a solid 2nd round pick but not worth special attention. If you say 30, that makes him more interesting. Should you say higher than 30, then you’ve singled him out as TDWR (jazz term: talent deserving wider recognition).
Somewhere in the hour you perhaps should have pinned yourselves down a bit more. IMHO. Saying one hundred largely true things about Jon Leuer could be viewed as a casserole dish with way too many ingredients. Too many ingredients and the dish usually has no distinctive flavor. Character comes from selectivity more than from inclusivity.
Not being harsh here. I’d end with fulsome praise for what you do, but it would likely go to your heads…
;)
Chuk brining the thunder! I like it.
It’s certainly true we didn’t make many definitive statements, but it is precisely because (as you noted) there are so many unknowns. From the positional logjam to the fact that nobody has seen the man play a single second on an NBA court, there are reasons we can only call this thing a “forecast.”
In that case, why did we make such a long recording on Leuer and Harris? Two reasons: (1) people love to talk about prospects in every sport, and it is important to identify the salient issues for these players heading into the season, and (2) we understand that people are suffering fatigue from the PR games being played in the lockout negotiation, so we are efforting some basketball analysis in the absence of actual basketball.
I certainly appreciate the honesty, and I hope you don’t consider this the end of the discussion either. I would argue with you on one point in your above statements. You said “I dont know if definite statements make sense, but they are expected of sports pundits,” which may be true, but it can’t end there. Even if expected by some, would a definitive statement about a guy who has never set foot on an NBA court be worthy of respect or a sign of true analysis? In my estimation, our job is primarily to present the most important issues and give our honest opinions. I’m not afraid to admit that I don’t quite know if Leuer is good enough to crack an NBA rotation, but wouldn’t you be a bit scared as a reader if I was willing to stake a claim and say yes just for the sake of making a low risk guess that might let me say I told you so later?
When we get a sample size of NBA basketball, we will definitely offer our take. Just look at how we have been willing to cover Brandon Jennings.
And thanks for listening chuk. I love the feedback, and remember the suggestion box is always open for additional topics and
Comments.
"Don't worry, I've got an idea. An idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about..."
by Steve von Horn on Sep 20, 2011 12:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
"Even if expected by some, would a definitive statement about a guy who has never set foot on an NBA court be worthy of respect or a sign of true analysis?"
Like a high-wire performer at the circus (if they still have circuses), it’s a delicate balance – not only to stay up on the wire and not down in the safety net, but also to be bold enough to generate interest (please the crowd) without being reckless (which destroys confidence). Have to strike the just-right balance.
Some risk I’d say goes with the job. GMs have to search their guts and make early decisions. Maybe sports analysts do too. But please don’t take the word “definitive” farther than I meant it. You can say something like "our hunch is that Leuer will [definitive statement]. IF you do have a hunch.
While you’re at it, why not try to develop the skill of discerning hints of the future in the confusing mix of the present. They are there, but the ability to see them varies widely. Most sports journalists don’t do that (like cops, many have learned not to care, not to invest).
But hey why not develop the whole mind author/politico David Brooks is now telling us about in book, speeches, and interviews. Consciousness, he says, is only the tip of the iceberg and our best qualities, most crucial abilities operate outside of consciousness. It’s the message, he says, coming from up-to-the-minute scientific research on the brain.
Maybe new stats can combine with new consciousness in a new breed of super sports reporters. The Games with insight and without the cynicism. (Things don’t have to be “ideal” to be worth a man’s attention.)
Stopping now…
This is a good chat, but now I am getting a bit confused. It might have been the use of the word "definitive," because I don't think it can be applied as liberally as you suggest in your response.
If you like hints of the future, I think we gave a decent amount of that in the audio (going all the way back to our coverage on Ersan’s feelings and how they may affect the roster and rotation), but we kept our focus on the “why” Leuer might be able to step in for Ersan (and what he may do better and what he may do worse, or alternatively why he won’t beat out Ersan for his job if the Turk stays).
Again, I can only give my honest opinions. I could fake a more polarizing opinion, but where does that get any of us? Isn’t the heart of a good story the analysis and observation, rather than a coin-flip guess of good or bad? For those who haven’t seen Jon Leuer play, isn’t it more important to learn about his skills and his college system than it is to hear a prediction that he will be worth more than the 40th pick in a draft class (whatever that may mean, considering nobody in the whole class has a single minute of play yet)?
When boiling something down to simple predictions, I have found that the story then unnecessarily becomes more about the prognosticator than the player. If I was really into that game, it would be easy to make a good prediction…because you can couch the high-reward guess with obvious statements that make failure seem expected as well.
Observe: most second round picks don’t turn out to be much in the NBA, but Jon Leuer has the tools to be an important rotation player in the NBA…it all comes down to opportunity and whether he is willing to put in the work to gain the trust of the staff. This is how I see most predictions go when it comes to “analysts,” there is space on either side to be right and it’s almost impossible to be wrong.
Now you might have a different type of prediction in mind, but I’m having trouble understanding what it might be. I might just be missing the boat though…
"Don't worry, I've got an idea. An idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about..."
by Steve von Horn on Sep 20, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Your bit of confusion is warranted...
I like your points in this chat more than I like mine. (At least the on-topic ones.)
My original impulse was to figure out how 56:54 could either become more deeply specific about Jon Leuer or become shorter. When I finished the cast, I didn’t feel that the topic had enough shape to warrant the time it took. But… I listened to the whole thing, so I wasn’t bored. Just felt the specific content didn’t match the length. Any comments from me that you should have more content weren’t very realistic.
I’m guessing that you’d say that your podcasts are a work in progress. I’m sure you’ll figure out if and how you want to make them better. And you won’t need any help from me.
This podcast is another example that you (plural) come up with valid coverage when others apparently see nothing. Thanks.
Hey Chuk, I continued to ask for clarification for the exact reasons you suggest: we are a work in progress and we are trying to get better.
The feedback is definitely helpful. The things I have gleaned from our talk are: (1) 55 minutes is quite possibly too damn long :)…believe me, this was something we had our suspicions about so don’t feel about about suggesting it, and (2) if we ever do a 55 minute podcast again, there had better be a really good reason.
Of all the lengths we have done so far, which one seems the optimal for this format in your opinion? Are you a fan of multiple topics being covered in a single episode, or short and sweet, but more often? Anyone else who wants to offer their take is welcome as well.
"Don't worry, I've got an idea. An idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about..."
by Steve von Horn on Sep 20, 2011 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I think it's obvious that we should have talked more about Todd Day
by Frank Madden on Sep 20, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I know this much
Anybody who’s able to talk for a whole hour about a 2nd round pick on the Milwaukee Bucks deserves a medal.
The Artist Formerly known as Speedingtime/Speedy
by Jacob Grinyer on Sep 23, 2011 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Like other performers...
…you have to have the discipline and artifice to sound perfectly natural. You have to sound like you’re having an enthusiastic chat over a few beers, while following a “script” that features brevity and punch.
It’s another damn balancing act. But it’s not phony. It’s channeling your true self into a disciplined framework that turns what would be a rambling, typical conversation that works fine in a bar among friends into a little concise work of “art” that works great in a podcast. That’s the business and the practice of being an actor. We just watch and enjoy, but there’s a lot of work and developed talent there.
IMO, you can’t just say everything there is to be said about Jon Leuer. To me, that’s a supermarket shopping list – shapeless. You have to find your “story” in Jon Leuer. Stories are powerful when you’re dealing with human beings. They have meaning and they stay in memory. Yes, you “overview” briefly for the broad picture. But you give extra focus on a story that leaves your hearers with a “picture” of Leuer that is interesting going forward. Perhaps the Leuer story is, as you said, that he is a 2nd round pick, subject to the limited prospects of being picked that late, but that he has these look-carefully-and-you’ll-see-them skills that hard work could develop and make him into a rotation player. That makes a story, and it makes a useful way to anticipate Jon Leuer.
You may need to develop a more complete script outline for the podcast. Resist wandering away. You may wish to agree with each other with a few words and not a few paragraphs. (Avoiding redundancy.) You may want to practice Less is More. Leave out the nice but non-essential. You get shape and punch from being selective. You get confusion and watered-down-ness from being inclusive. You may wish to average about 15-20 minutes – with more on those occasions when the Story requires it.
Those are my humble thots. Priced at 2¢ – admittedly pretty expensive but shipping is included.
All good points
And I think the letting things wander issue also gets magnified when you have three people talking…just puts an extra emphasis on structuring things a bit more, rather than having everyone give their thoughts even if there’s a fair bit of overlap.
by Frank Madden on Sep 21, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey guys, just wanted to let you know I really enjoy all of the podcasts.
They might be a little on the long side, but it’s great when you’re using it as a source of procrastination! In all seriousness, and if nothing else, it’s really refreshing being able hear some Bucks’ news/analysis amid all of the talks of the lockout, Packers and Brewers.
Thanks!
I would agree that the last two have very much been on the long side…my guess is 20-30 min is the sweet spot, but I’m sure some people might prefer even shorter. Either way they’re fun for us to do and hopefully informative/vaguely amusing to you guys.
And if anyone has ideas for topics or questions we should address, comments on structure, or how I should have a less obnoxious voice…well, fire away. I think Southern Marxist suggested something about Michael Redd and Chris Douglas-Roberts, so that’s on the to-do list at the moment.
by Frank Madden on Sep 21, 2011 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions
your voice
Mystery books I’ve read and TV’s Mentalist have the bad guy using one of those electronic devices that allow you to choose the person you want to sound like. For you, I suppose that’s Todd Day. But, it’s your call. Walmart may have them.
I had no negative reaction to your voice. But if that’s what keeps you humble, far be from me to disagree.
Well that's good
I think most people generally find the sound of their own recorded voice a bit strange, so I suppose in that sense I’m not unique…and it’s not like there’s much I can do about it at this point, eh?
by Frank Madden on Sep 21, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Another Reason this Lock Out Needs to END>>>
Although I truly appreciate the effortst to bring subject and banter to the masses it is topics like this, that for this writer, must simple wait until I see a Leur or Harris perform their skill sets on the NBA Hardwood. Unitl then, there is a bit of frivilousness to it all (for me). Guess I don’t play well with others (relative to blog world banter in that we throw out our best guesses).
It is why this Lock Out needs to end so prospects such as Leur and Harris get actual floor time against would be peers. Better then to assess whether the leap from college to pro’s is doable for either. Until then, words on pages, (or podcasts), again although appreciated, remain filler in a cassarole yet to be baked.
(The lack of participation noted on this blog, and others at this time seem to suggest that many feel the same. It is my hope that the lethargic-sense does not evolve into an apathitic stance as the Resolution Committes drag this thing on?)
“Of course everthing I said could be wrong”….(Dennis Miller)
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