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If The Milwaukee Bucks Rebuild, They May Need To Start At Point Guard

What if I said "Dear reader, have a Brandon Jennings type of day." It could be interpreted 1000 different ways by 1000 different people. It has as much substance and depth as you want it to have. It might say more about the Bucks as an organization than it does about the player himself. It could mean something completely different from one day to the next, as the young point guard sorts through his peaks and valleys on the court. Who knows what it means. All I know is that I hope I'm not saying it five years from now.

I thought about calling this article "If The Bucks Rebuild," but I knew I wouldn't be fooling anyone. It just seems like it's going to happen. The core of Andrew Bogut and Brandon Jennings hasn't given any indication it can lead to meaningful contention. We have been willing to play along and hope for a back door into the playoffs these last few seasons as general manager John Hammond doubled down on the Bucks' surprising 46-win season and tried to make things work, but it simply hasn't. The injury excuse is just something under-performing teams use to mask their root problems, and at a bare minimum I hope I can one day say I support a franchise that manages to exceed expectations in the face of injuries rather than one that points to injuries as the reason for failure. That can't be too much to ask.

As yet another season spirals out of control, I have heard calls to trade Andrew Bogut, Ersan Ilyasova, Drew Gooden, Stephen Jackson, Carlos Delfino, future draft picks and anything else not tied down. Everything except Brandon Jennings, that is. Allow me to flip the trade talk on its head...

Star-divide

For some, Jennings is a shining beacon of hope and potential for a franchise that can't seem to break out of their cycle of crippling mediocrity. For others, Jennings is majority owner in the recent string of failure, where the the idea of sustained success is a pipe dream on the other side of yet another bumbled rebuilding process. With Andrew Bogut struggling to find a passable offensive game since his terrible fall nearly 22 months ago, there can be little argument that Brandon Jennings is the Bucks' most valuable player. Unless of course you believe 4-9 teams don't produce much value and don't have MVP awards. In that case he is part of the problem, rather than part of the eventual solution.

So much has happened with Brandon Jennings' game since the start of the 2011-12 season, and yet so much has stayed the same. The Bucks are still in a rut, he is still taking the majority of shots while squeezing out some points along the way, and the idea of double-digit assists only comes up when talking other players on the team. For a team saddled with big contracts and dead weight, why even talk about a kid on his rookie deal? Because the Bucks should be focused on the future. They need to know whether Jennings is part of the next "core" constructed to reach a level of meaningful competition in the NBA. He might be the only one still around the next time the franchise is nationally relevant. Soon enough he will be asking for a whole lot of money to stay in Milwaukee; I hope the Bucks respectfully decline.

I'm sure this premise will rub people the wrong way, but I too dreamed of great things for Brandon Jennings at one point in his career. I consider myself disillusioned by the weight of the evidence. You might consider me delusional. In any case, I intend to lay out my approach and thought process on how I got to where I am regarding the Bucks' point guard. Here it is:

Brandon Jennings has a terrific will to win, but he lacks self-awareness and ultimately undermines his ability to win. Brandon Jennings is a fierce competitor that brings attitude and edge to a Bucks team that is constantly playing the underdog role on the court and in the media. He is an affable young man and genuinely likable as a sports personality, but he just doesn't quite get it. By "it," I mean the fact that he is a terrible shooter. His points per game marks suggest he is a scoring talent, but his efficiency numbers hollow out the core of that assumption with harsh finality. He has actually improved his shooting significantly so far this season, settling in at the league average numbers at his position after spending two full seasons as one of the worst shooting PGs in the NBA, but has given it all back on defense. Again: his highest heights have hit the league average. Before I break down the defensive troubles, let me put his career shooting numbers (including 2011-12) into the proper context:

  • From the day Brandon Jennings entered the league in 09-10 to 1/19/2012, exactly 108 players have attempted 1500+ field goals (he ranks 26th with 2351 attempts). At 38.5 percent, Jennings has the worst field goal percentage of any of them, and it isn't even close. The only other player out of the entire group to even shoot below 40.0 percent is Trevor Ariza (39.7 percent on 1822 attempts). Shrinking the attempts threshold and moving down the list, the first player to match his ineptitude is 151st-ranked Rasual Butler (38.5 percent on only 1190 attempts).
  • In the available history of the Milwaukee Bucks franchise, meaning 1985-86 to 2011-12 on the Basketball-Reference database, he is the fourth-worst shooter during that period among players with 300+ field goal attempts in their Bucks career. Only Rafer Alston, Lindsey Hunter and Shawn Respert have amassed worse shooting numbers as a Buck than Jennings, but those players took nearly 1000 less attempts combined than Jennings has already launched during his two-plus years with the Bucks.

If you put Brandon Jennings on the court, he is going to shoot the ball far more than he will create for others and pass the ball. It's just a fact of life with Jennings. He once spoke about lofty assist goals and it sounded great, but he has still yet to average even 6 assists per game despite playing more minutes and games than nearly any other player on his teams. One line of argumentation forgives his failures by indicting his teammates, while it may contribute to the problem, it doesn't let Jennings off the hook for failing to create better opportunities and make his teammates better by getting them easy looks. Furthermore, the teammate bus toss argument misses the bigger point: Brandon Jennings doesn't want to pass, he wants to shoot. That's not to say he is selfish or doesn't want to win, just that he is tone deaf with regards to his deficiencies and reckless in his tendencies. There may exist some hypothetical world where his teammates would have missed more shots if Jennings had created chances for them, but the stone cold reality is that Jennings takes the majority of shots in the offense despite the shooting numbers posted in the previous section. Consider these additional nuggets:

  • In 09-10, every regular rotation player (500+ minutes) on the Bucks' roster had a higher true shooting percentage than Jennings, yet he took 300 more shots than the next closest player. If Jennings had created and passed to anyone else on the floor instead of taking his shot, the team would have had a better chance of scoring.
  • In 10-11, every regular rotation player (500+ minutes) on the Bucks' roster except Drew Gooden and Larry Sanders had a higher true shooting percentage than Jennings, but once again he took more shots than any other player on the roster. If Jennings had created and passed to anyone other than Drew Gooden or Larry Sanders instead of taking his shot, the team would have had a better chance of scoring.
  • In 11-12, Jennings has raised his TS% to slightly above the positional average, but Beno Udrih and Shaun Livingston are PGs on his own team that have still outperformed him in that department. Jon Leuer, Shaun Livingston, Beno Udrih and Tobias Harris all have higher true shooting percentages, yet Jennings has nearly taken more shots than all four players combined.
  • All the while, Jennings has only managed a career average of 5.3 assists per game. To get all Darren Rovell on you, he records one assists for every 6.31 minutes on the floor, but takes one shot every 2.26 minutes. Put another way, Jennings has a 2.79:1 shot attempts to assist ratio.

The organization deserves some grief for allowing him to play this brand of losing basketball so early in his career, but Jennings is ultimately responsible for his decisions on the court. Nobody is forcing him to shoot. Then again, apparently nobody is telling him that most of his teammates have been better shooters than him either. Why am I laying all of these failures at the doorstep of Brandon Jennings? Because he has been the player most responsible for the ineptitude of the offense during his career. Unfettered by a lack of opportunity or limited access to the ball, Jennings has chosen his own path and now has an enormous pattern of shoot-first conduct to show for it. If the Bucks make him a part of the future, he will continue to play as a combo guard and not as a point guard.

He is young and has recently shown some improvement, but his ceiling isn't high enough. Small point guards need to be good shooters, great distributors or both. They cannot be none of the above. I understand that Jennings is young, but all NBA players were young at one point. The youth argument doesn't hold weight for me when most young players turn out to be bad, and only a select few at each position rise to prominence in the NBA. Does every young player have a 55-point game on their resume? No. On the flip side, does every player have a 156-game resume that establishes them as most inaccurate volume shooter in the entire NBA? No. The dizzying heights he has reached in single games simply doesn't overcome the weight of his career profile for me anymore, and that includes his recent improvement.

Speaking of his improved play, I have dedicated myself to an honest look at what Jennings has managed to put together so far in 2011-12. Don't let the fact that I don't trust him as part of the core make you miss out on my analysis for this season, because it actually shows some surprising good trends for those who believe he has become a clutch closer in the 4th quarter.

Here is what I did:

  • I collected data on each game and broke down the performance of Jennings and his point guard counterpart for two segments of the game: Quarters 1-3 and the 4th Quarter. From there I looked at the shooting and distributing of each player and marked the winner in each category for each game, and then the overall advantage for the season-to-date. Green is the better performance, salmon is the inferior performance.

Here is what I found:

  • Either Brandon Jennings is a clutch closer, or he simply isn't good enough in the first three quarters against his counterparts. The fact that the opponent's point guards have shot better and scored more efficiently in the 39 quarters represented in the first segment doesn't come as much of a surprise, but two disturbing things do pop out for someone I used to consider an above-average defender at his position.
  • (1) Counterparts in the first three quarters of games have produced a 60.9 percent true shooting mark, which is an elite level. In 2010-11, the only PG in the entire NBA to finish the season with a TS% above 60.9 was Chauncey Billups. (2) Although the assist-to-turnover ratios are comparable, the opposing PGs have dished out 29 more assists than Jennings during that time period and taken the lead into the fourth quarter in 8 out of the 13 games.
  • Brandon Jennings has been remarkably good in the fourth quarter this season. He outperformed opposing point guards in every category over those 13 quarters of play, most notably by protecting the ball very well and scoring more points more efficiently than his counterpart. If this was the Brandon Jennings that showed up in every quarter, this entire article would never have been written. I would be wearing three Jennings jerseys stacked on top of each other while writing lengthy love letters about his game that could unchain the heart of even a beaten down analyst like my current self. Seriously good fourth quarter performances here, folks.
  • His fourth quarter performances haven't been good enough to overcome the inequities of the first three quarters on most nights. The Bucks have only taken leads into the fourth quarter in five games so far this season, but they have only won three of those games (home tilts against the T'Wolves, Wizards and Pistons). Meanwhile, Milwaukee has trailed entering the final period eight times and lost seven of them (with the win being a two-point deficit overcome to defeat the Spurs).
  • I like what Jennings has done in the fourth quarter, but I would trade it for a solid first three quarters every day of the week. I don't think the fourth quarter numbers are more indicative of his play this season than quarters 1-3 each night.

After having a light-hearted debate over the meaning of Jennings' fourth quarter against the Denver Nuggets -- where the Bucks entered the period trailing by 18-points and lost by 9 -- I stepped back to distill my thoughts about garbage time in the NBA. Here why I don't pay attention after the margin hits 18-points heading into the fourth quarter: I subscribe to the concept of win expectancy. I think we all do, to a certain extent, but for me it tells me when to stop the evaluation. No doubt Jennings flashed a competitive fire beyond the other players on the floor, but by that time it just couldn't change the outcome of the game.

To understand what I am saying, think of each game opening at 0-0 with both teams at roughly a 50-50 chance to win. With each event that occurs and each second that ticks off the clock, the calculus changes. When the Nuggets went up 63-44 at halftime, the Bucks' chances win had taken a huge hit due to the margin they had to make up and the time that had already ticked off the clock. From there recalculation would take into account the likelihood of a 20-point second-half comeback, which is certainly slim. I'd venture to say teams fail in that situation at least 90% of the time, which is why such a comeback would be a big story on the night if it happened. The same logic applies to the 18-point deficit in the fourth quarter, but the odds become even more slim because there is far less time on the clock to get the job done.

In other words, the Bucks had maybe a 1-2% chance to win the game. I'm glad Jennings pursued that chance with passion, but from the Nuggets perspective they cared more about the clock running out than the fact that they won by 9-points instead of 18-points. Defenses get more passive with big leads because the goal has already been accomplished. Teams seek to win games, not to win games by specific margins. That's why I don't care about garbage time. I care deeply about how the Bucks end up on the wrong side of garbage time far too often.

So here we are, 2600 words later but not far from where we started. Once again, the tantalizing results are contained in a small sample size, while the overwhelming weight of the evidence casts a dark and expansive shadow on Jennings as a player. It's almost odd that I timed this post for the best stretch of play Jennings has ever shown, but maybe he can't do what I think an offensive centerpiece or core player needs to be able to anyways. With Jennings it feels like death by a thousand cuts. Never anything major to signal crippling inefficiency or limits on his future development, but rather a creeping mediocrity that largely goes unnoticed amid a sea of other more expensive and eye-catching wreckage. Heck, maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places. In any case, I've made my mind up. When the Bucks finally begin rebuilding in earnest, I believe they are going to need a new point guard.

Comment 148 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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Saw the title.

Thought, “Here we go…”

A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.

by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 19, 2012 4:39 PM CST reply actions  

Finished reading, and we sure went.

Rec’d

A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.

by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 19, 2012 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

FG% this year:
B Jennings – 45.0%
D Rose – 43.9%
R Westbrook – 45.2%
J Holiday – 44.2%
Deron Williams – 37.2%
Kevin Martin – 39.9%
Kobe – 45.6%

For a guard, 45% is pretty good.

by weisomatic. on Jan 19, 2012 4:40 PM CST reply actions  

Regular shooting % is helpful but doesnt tell the whole story

True shooting is a far better showcase of how efficiently a player scores.

Of those players, Martin is an extremely good FT and 3 point shooter, Kobe gets tons of FTs per game and converts, same with Westbrook and Rose . Williams is having a down year offensively, but in distributing the ball he is far superior.

Holliday is probably a better 3 point shooter and also runs his offense better. Overall he is the closest player on there to Jennigns though.

by NewCavsfan on Jan 19, 2012 5:29 PM CST up reply actions  

So you say there's something to this TS%, eh?

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Assist Numbers

You can’t just look at assist totals and say “Oh player A gets more assists per game than player B. He must be a better point guard, or a better passer.” The system the players are in makes a huge difference.

Look at the Bucks point guards (who got at least 16 minutes per game) Assists/Minute from the last two years (I rounded):
This Year:
Jennings .1416
Udrih .1150
Livingston .1136

Last Year:
Jennings .1391
Dooling .1364

When comparing apples to apples, Jennings assist numbers look a little better methinks.

by weisomatic. on Jan 19, 2012 4:45 PM CST reply actions  

So

you say that Jennings needs to be moved because he hasn’t produced as effectively as we want at his position. This also doesn’t consider the facts:

- He’s still only 22. That’s YOUNG.
- His team has been defense-first since he got drafted, and his first two years saw him develop on defense nobody thought he could.
- Has he ever had a teammate that can hit a shot, besides thirty-some games of John Salmons his rookie year? No, really. Would Rondo’s numbers be what they are if he didn’t have three good offensive players on the court with him? Not everyone can be Steve Nash when they’re given a pu-pu platter of poo-poo players.

I say that Jennings deserves a chance to grow further with the team during any rebuilding, based on the one point you made that I agree with:

Brandon Jennings is a fierce competitor that brings attitude and edge to a Bucks team that is constantly playing the underdog role on the court and in the media.

When’s the last time we had that?

http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.

by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 19, 2012 4:49 PM CST reply actions  

While I agree with much of Steve's assessment ....

Mitchell makes a couple points that I have hung onto, and that involves his young age, moxy, and lack of a supporting cast. He might not “get it” now, as Steve emphasizes, but I still have hope that he still might.

by tommyr on Jan 19, 2012 8:01 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a big gamble though to move forward on the hope he does get it and when he does it makes a big enough difference in his level of play.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:29 PM CST up reply actions  

If they need a really good 2 and 3, then how important/special is Jennings anyways?

All I’m saying is that he guy who has a scorer’s mentality. They work great off the bench, look around the NBA for that, but not as a starting PG with terrible efficiency to boot.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Yea, Lou Williams feels about right

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

There aren't Win Expectancy Graphs for basketball?

A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.

by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 19, 2012 4:57 PM CST reply actions  

No, and it makes me sad.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

You just got a shoutout

on wssp. Also Gery Woelfel thinks that everyone is available for a trade.

by Blazza18 on Jan 19, 2012 5:01 PM CST reply actions  

God, looking at this site is SO much better with Ad-block

A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.

by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 19, 2012 5:11 PM CST reply actions  

I still like rookie contract Brandon Jennings

What we’ve seen so far this season has been a much more productive and efficient Jennings, and if it continues then you’ve got a top-ten NBA point guard. It’s a big “if” but it’s very possible. And top-ten PGs don’t grow on trees…by my math, about 1/3 of teams have one :)

The problem is that Jennings isn’t likely to ever be elite (ie in the category of Rose, Westbrook, Paul, D-Will), but will the Bucks be forced to pay him elite dollars? That’s what makes me most nervous. I thought the Bucks had to be at least open to dealing Jennings last summer, and I don’t think that’s changed. The Bucks aren’t good enough to have any untouchables. The way it is.

by Frank Madden on Jan 19, 2012 5:12 PM CST reply actions  

Points are like RBIs to me... Jennings get 10M per year easy

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

"When The Milwaukee Bucks Rebuild, They Need To Start At Point Guard"

I can’t say I really agree with that. Obviously nobody’s untouchable but I’m sure they could start out at any other position and do just as well…

He’s still young, but when the time comes to decide whether to give him a contract extension or not it will be a difficult decision depending on how much he and others see him as being worth…

by Jacob Grinyer on Jan 19, 2012 6:00 PM CST reply actions  

Its too early to give up on Brandon Jennings.Who else can you build around on this team Bogut, a player that can never stay healthy? Steve Nash is considered to be one of the best point guards in the NBA. But, look at his stats for his first three years he was nothing special.

by eastsidemil on Jan 19, 2012 6:15 PM CST reply actions  

Nash played 5149 total minutes in his first four seasons and actually played pretty well, but didn't get much of an opportunity.

Jennings as played 5310 minutes in 2 seasons + 13 games, and has not performed well with an opportunity usually reserved for superstars.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Trading Jennings?

To anyone who doesn’t believe that Jennings should be part of our rebuild, what can the Bucks get back for Jennings that fulfills the goal to rebuild? Maybe its just me, but I have no vision for how trading Jennings will improve a Bucks rebuild.

Let’s not play like other teams are foolish and will offer a young player with a sky high ceiling for Jennings. Similarly, I wouldn’t expect a very high draft pick in return for Jennings. Our best return for Jennings would be a young player with similar potential or a older player from a non-contending team looking to swap experience for youth.

If the Bucks really want to Win-Now, then perhaps trading Jennings isn’t a bad idea at all. It would be easy to find a rebuilding team that wants an upside PG for one of their older experienced contributors.

by FearTheDeer on Jan 19, 2012 6:25 PM CST reply actions  

That's the ultimate question

The Bucks had a huge risk coming into the season in that Jennings’ value would likely erode significantly if he didn’t show demonstrable improvement. If he did improve, then you get the double-benefit of having a guy you can justify keeping AND a more valuable trade asset.

If the Bucks want to rebuild—-and if this season doesn’t turn around then you have to consider the possibilities—then you start by figuring out if your current assets can get you anything worth building around. If Jennings can get you a top five pick in the upcoming draft (kinda doubtful unless he really keeps up his current form), then I can see the argument for moving him. As part of a package for a non-elite veteran? Meh, I don’t see the point.

The Bucks can’t just get a PG worth rebuilding around out of thin air, so until one lands in their lap or they find one via trade then Jennings is the default for the next year or two while he’s still on his rookie deal. I see TheJay just brought up the contract question below so I’ll address that down there…

by Frank Madden on Jan 19, 2012 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Thoughts

In the shooting area, Larry Sanders was also worse than Jennings in 10-11. Also, talking about this season, two of guys above him play the same position and one is a bench guy. Given he’s getting the bulk of playing time, you’d expect him to take more shots than them, even combined. Also, how often is he on the court with those guys? Considering he’s shooting better than most of the guys he’s on the floor with regularly, couldn’t you twist that to say he should shoot more? ;) Maybe that points to a problem with playing time for some other guys, but that’s kind of outside this post.

Also interesting to me that your analysis by quarter this year leads you to conclude he’s done badly against his counterparts in quarters 1-3 but when it comes to points he is tied. Yeah, if he shot better he’d have scored more points, but I would have expected more from his counterparts as well.

Anyway, if the team does decide to keep him after his rookie contract, what would be the maximum you would pay him? Or thinking another way, what would be the minimum you would take in a trade for him this season? Next season?

I never use a big word when a diminutive word would suffice.

by TheJay on Jan 19, 2012 6:34 PM CST reply actions  

There are so many angles to this, but the bottom line is ...

The Milwaukee Bucks are in deep do do …question is, how does a team get rid of everybody? We are staring at another 2-4 year plan. Sad thing is, the declining fan base will continue to erode.

by tommyr on Jan 19, 2012 7:04 PM CST reply actions  

I am non sufficiently self-centered to believe this post was directed at me but....

I’ll play Jane Curtin to your Dan Ackroyd(another great Canadian)

First of all I have never said that BJ is untouchable, I did state last year that I though that last summer was not the time to trade him as his trade value would probably be low. I felt that keeping him for another year and hoping his game improved was the best course of action to take.

You base a lot of your argument on his cumulative stats and I believe you have to look more at this year. 45% Steve……that is superb for the time of player he is….The Answer(Iverson I mean not solution)…lifetime efg% 45.2 ts% 51.8 fg% 42.5% Can BJ keep it up? I don’t know but he is the only real scorer we have at the moment.

Look at Billups 15.5ppg career and 5.5 assists. 41.6 career FG% didn’t break 40% until his 4th year

Lets look forward and hope he keeps it up before we close the book on him, I still say if I am Hammond(notice the lack of an s) and Kohl walks in and says “You can keep Bogut or Jennings” I am trying Bogut first because:

1. I can get a better ROI on Bogut than BJ I think
2. BJ has a higher ceiling than Bogut IMO
3. I believe Bogut is on decline

If you are talking about rebuilding around one player, those are really the only two to choose. Other than Leuer and Harris, the rest are spare parts IMO.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 19, 2012 7:05 PM CST reply actions  

Sorry Sanders stays too

But either play him or send him to the D

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 19, 2012 7:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Just for reference sake

And no I don’t think BJ is close to AI….Iverson’s career shot to assist ratio was 3.54

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 19, 2012 7:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

And that is an attribute that rarely disappears. I like the dude, but he is flawed offensively and far too brittle. I say you get what you can for him.

by tommyr on Jan 19, 2012 8:16 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Before it's nothing

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 19, 2012 8:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Jennings is making solid progress and we shouldn't give up on him until his rookie contract is over...

I don’t think he will ever be an all-star but he can be a valuable contributor to a winning team and has shown improvement every year so far… even though it is small improvement he is making strides in the right direction…

by Superelkman on Jan 19, 2012 7:59 PM CST reply actions  

unfair...

look, I don’t know a thing about the stats. but I have watched a ton of games, and to compile this huge smackdown of THE ONLY EXCITING PLAYER on the whole team is kind of retarded. my question: how does bogut get off so easy? he was the #1 pick, and he cant score, and not because he lacks talent, but because he lacks tenacity, will, he would average 20 if he had the tenacity of jennings…I dont have to compile a stat sheet to know his little baby hook is not going in the basket. bottom line your whole presentation doesnt jive w/ what i have seen with my own eyes. I think he’s going to continue to improve, f%^k the stats.

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 19, 2012 8:00 PM CST reply actions  

I cannot WAIT for victor s to read this post.

http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.

by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 19, 2012 9:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Because he will be Steve's BFFL

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 19, 2012 9:58 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm not victor s. I hope you know that.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I know that

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 12:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Okay cool, just making sure.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I can tell by the writing style

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

The fact that it'd get to a style comparison is just weird though.

I’ve sensed undertones for a while, not specifically you, but still

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I've never seen one of your posts

With the word “diva”

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Lol.

But I do say Stephen Jackson can lead from the bench. Except for tonight.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow

It is hard to react to this screed. Yes we have problems. Yes we need to change things up. Yes, we are probably headed to the just missed the lottery slot.
But how on earth can you take those stats and come up with this outcome.
What surprised me the most was the fact that you ignored the worst aspect of Jennings game. He is a terrible on ball defender. That can be taught (if he can be made to listen).
He is at worst an average shooting point guard. His lack of assists has a lot to do with the shotting problems of the players he is pasing to.
If you want to blow up the team, as much as it pains me, then look to number 6. I appreciate that he has something going on that is eating at him. but that last game, he just mailed it in.
The truth be known, right now I would keep Harris, Leuer, maybe Sanders, and Jennings. The rest are not giving us much and need to be told that.

by Dreadrastaman on Jan 19, 2012 8:11 PM CST reply actions  

I actually thought Jennings was quite good as an on-ball defender in his first two seasons, and Skiles said so on occasion himself.

He’s down this year in that department from what I see, and I did indeed cover it in the 4th quarter comp breakdown, but I’d say he can still be above average in the dept. (as long as the other PG doesn’t have a huge size advantage and post package).

As to blowing up the team, if you think Jennings is valuable, he’d be a great place to start for blowing up the team and getting assets to start over correctly. If you don’t think he has value, then why would you want/defend him in the next “core?”

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

as far as I am concerned

the coach goes well before the team is dismantled.

Perhaps the lack of big name coaches available and willing will hurt, but for mine the coach has around a fortnight to change it up, show leadership in the media and create a situation were the players respond.

by AussieTom on Jan 20, 2012 6:25 AM CST up reply actions  

And btw, with all due respect to Frank, Dan and the rest of the excellent writers @ BH....

Regardless of my personal thoughts of BJ, this was one of the best posts I’ve ever read here [big kudos, considering the talent that we’re lucky enough to have]

by victor s on Jan 19, 2012 10:13 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Interesting read, Steve

But everywhere I look at my team I see big trouble. Management must be far better. Roster must be much better. They seem to have had no smart, coherent plan – other than erratic attempts at Win Now – so maybe that’s the place to start.
But by whom?

Trading Jennings Hot & Now for a different fast food shop won’t make much difference if the whole town is under water.

by unklchuk on Jan 19, 2012 10:13 PM CST reply actions  

Woelfel's "everybody"

…has led to a 9-page thread at:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1154162

Dang. We’re all desperate for something.

by unklchuk on Jan 19, 2012 10:26 PM CST reply actions  

I would take bynum for bogut in 1/2 second. please get it done.

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 19, 2012 11:41 PM CST reply actions  

No thanks.

As injury prone [if not more] than Bogut, and I guess he’s a bad seed in the locker room.

Plus he’d probably bitch about playing in Milw…

I’m all for moving Bogut, but it’s gotta be at the right price.

by victor s on Jan 19, 2012 11:46 PM CST reply actions  

w.h.a.t.e.v.e.r. the guy can put the ball in the basket and doesnt make me feel like slow drip of embarrassed failure watching meek flat foot brick garbage BS every game, we dont need his solid D, we need some F’ing ballers.

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 20, 2012 12:11 AM CST reply actions  

Bynum is an over-rated jerk IMO

You really think he’d come to Milw and play nice? I doubt it.

and as much as we need “ballers” – we don’t need immature divas, who will count the days until free agency so they can leave Milw

by victor s on Jan 20, 2012 7:55 AM CST up reply actions  

where is your evidence of this behavior? as far as i know he is a nice guy, a champion btw, and like i said an actual player, not a waddling black hole. you cant just assume he hates milwaukee, that just shows you have a crappy mentality. you dont hear oklahoma city people worrying about that stuff, you really think milwaukee is worse than OKC? no, its not its just that our team sucks and we have a loser mentality. so screw that, trade for bynum.

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 20, 2012 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

I think he's a jerk too

But I have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of that. He must have done something a couple years back that propelled me to jump to that conclusion. I have no idea what.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 10:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't really want Bynum

But for different reasons….We would still be a .500 team fighting for the 8th spot unless he went into beast mode here.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

agreed

A horizontal move, and when we move horizontal we stay hidden by the tall grass.

That’s a reason to look at Horford. He misses this season, enhancing the pick. Next season we add a couple players through trades, FA, etc. We get a high pick. We get a strong starter in Horford. We’re better. How much better? Prob depends on how good how soon the pick is.

Horford may not be available. But I want any trade to leave us bad this year but better as soon as next year. Not waiting 3 or more years.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

+1000

To me Bogut for Horford would be the best deal. Not sure Atlanta would agree however.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Clotheslining JJ Barea in the playoffs last year?

I get that you’re frustrated from being blown out in the playoffs, but that’s one of the biggest cheap shots I’ve seen in all my years of watching basketball. There could’ve been a serious injury there and he just walked off like a punk afterwards.

by hibachi777 on Jan 20, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

ok that was pretty shitty, at least it was in the playoffs, and at least he has some fight in him, more than you can say about big teddy bear bogut.

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 20, 2012 5:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Various issues, these are two.

With Andrew Bogut struggling to find a passable offensive game since his terrible fall nearly 22 months ago, there can be little argument that Brandon Jennings is the Bucks’ most valuable player. Unless of course you believe 4-9 teams don’t produce much value and don’t have MVP awards. In that case he is part of the problem, rather than part of the eventual solution.

So, Brandon Jennings has been the best player on the Bucks. However, his teammates have played poorly, therefore the Bucks are 4-9. The Bucks are 4-9, therefore it doesn’t matter that Brandon Jennings has been the best player on the Bucks.

If Jennings had created and passed to anyone else on the floor instead of taking his shot, the team would have had a better chance of scoring.

Cleveland’s poor season last year was not largely because they failed to get would-be league-leading scorer Ryan Hollins and his 64.2 TS% at least 25 shots per game.

by Alex Boeder on Jan 20, 2012 12:26 AM CST reply actions  

I'm not sure your summaries represent a good faith effort to engage my points...

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Fight the good fight, Steve!

I guess folks didn’t watch Lawson and Miller put on a PG clinic the other night….

by victor s on Jan 20, 2012 7:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Andrew Bogut defensive stalwart

Got absolutely torched by wily veteran Greg Monroe…what’s your point

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 8:19 AM CST up reply actions  

If we can't agree on the idea that players who score more efficiently are better for an offense trying to maximize their point total, then we are talking past each other.

(1) This needs to be the initial question: have you been happy with the Bucks offenses during Jennings’ career? If yes, God bless you. If not. then the first place to look is Jennings. He is the offense when he is on the court, that’s just how he plays his game. I think guys like Leuer and Harris are serious bright spots because they have played well in limited roles, whereas Jennings has jacked up more shots with less success than almost every Buck during his career. Even bad teams score points…they just don’t do it very well. Points are like RBIs in baseball to me, they stem from opportunities first and then require closer looks to determine quality. If you bat Yuniesky Betancourt 3rd in the order, he will get RBIs just based on the premium position and the extra opportunities. Same goes for Jennings. If he has free reign to shoot as much as he wants, of course he will score well…Ricky Davis scored well too.

(2) Allocating the most shots to the least accurate and least efficient shooter being a bad idea can’t really be a controversial stand for me. I refuse to believe that. If Jennings is not to be held accountable for the offenses everyone hates right now and last season, despite leading those offenses in shot attempts, then we slide into the bizzaro world scenario (his teammates would have missed if he had passed anyways, even though they shoot better) which gets us nowhere.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you stealing by baseball thunder, Steve?

Hehe …points ..i made the same analogy about assists a few weeks back, if you remember.

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Well you must have put it in my head. Sorry about the thunder, I acknowledge your analogy is retrospect as the likely source

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Flagged for Yuni B. reference

A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.

by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 20, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

NOBODY LIKES BASEBALL.

http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.

by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 20, 2012 7:10 PM CST up reply actions  

The second assumption is faulty as

everyone not named Jennings on the Bucks is shooting 42.7%, how is passing a better option.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 6:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Canada, it is easier to blame one person (BJ) than several ....

An old Mafia trick …..best that one person go to prison and not 10 …hehe

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 8:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Remember the title and tone of the article here.

If I wrote about Drew Gooden, Carlos Delfino, Beno Udrih or Stephen Jackson not being in the next core, that is self-evident and the argument isn’t worth even typing out. A very serious decision has to be made on Jennings, however. He will be due a big payday (again, I see points like RBIs and expect Jennings to get 10M a year) and if the Bucks pay him he is the de facto core going forward. I don’t think he’s worth that money or fit to start at PG. No good NBA team starts a shoot-first PG outside of the Bulls and Thunder…those are the exceptions, and for good reasons.

I think Jennings could thrive as a sixth man type scorer off the bench, (ie- Louis Williams), but the Bucks won’t get the chance to pay him sixth man money (Williams is on a 5yr, 25M deal with the 76ers) and certainly won’t make him into a sixth man. He would start and continue to shoot, that’s what he does. To risk his first 2300 NBA shots are some type of fluke is insane to me, that’s why I don’t think he should be in the core.

The other disappointments on the team won’t be around because the decisions are too easy. This is the hard decision.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

But the premise of the article

Is that Jennings should be the first to go?

If The Milwaukee Bucks Rebuild, They May Need To Start At Point Guard
If the article says BJ doesn’t deserve max money I think you would get near unanimous agreement. I am saying if you trade either Bogut or Jennings(and who else is going to make a difference)it shoudl be Bogut for reasons I listed elsewhere.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

If I think the foundation is weak (Jennings) then that's where the team should start. I think Bogut makes more of a positive impact, and will continue to do so.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

But Bogut is on the table too. Make no mistake.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Is Jennings the foundation?

I don’t think the Bucks have a foundation. Bogut was that but he hasn’t proved himself to be super reliable on a nightly basis since 09-10.

by Jacob Grinyer on Jan 20, 2012 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Steve

Did the thread on your article at RealGM prove interesting to you?

Learn anything? Adjust any thinking? Get pissed at being misunderstood? Those are just questions. They don’t hint at any “larger” points. I can’t really wrap my little brain around Jennings is/isn’t the problem since there are big problems everywhere I look.

Unless our team has now shown its worst, and starting tonight will be beginning to develop its best. Taking us, perhaps, all the way back to mediocrity.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 8:13 AM CST reply actions  

I did follow along the realGM and listened to the audio link to WSSP in there as well. Thanks for that

As for the rest of it, I think the article responds to some of the general disagreement on its own merits under a closer reading/better understanding, but I get that I’m on the island here. It’s a tough move to make. A tough decision to discuss.

What drove me to expand from the 4th quarter thing in the first place is the tone of the readers and commenters here in the first place. Nobody is fooled. Nobody thinks the Bucks are a piece or two away from contending. People want to rebuild, so that’s why I approached it with the tone I did, to challenge people to think about who they want at the foundation of the rebuild. If the Bucks pay Jennings and make in the focal point, I really hope my opinion is dead wrong. I just want the Bucks to win and become a place for sustainable success. If I’m wrong, everyone is happy, including me.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:46 PM CST up reply actions  

surprised at the desperate tone being so universal

Besides Jennings, our identity is Bogut’s and Moute’s defense. No Bogut, no Moute, no wins. Seems simple. Doesn’t anyone want to see if they can turn it around with those guys out there together, at least for a little longer? Those are 2 of our best 3 players, and it’s been correctly pointed out that this year defense has been more of the problem so far than the traditional offensive woes.

If in fact we’re going to rebuild, then both Jennings and Bogut have to go since they’re the only ways we can get real assets, such as high lottery talent. However, this would be a crap-shoot midseason since nobody knows who’s going to pick where, so why not wait until the season plays out for this?

by istandan on Jan 20, 2012 8:40 AM CST reply actions  

I would just say

If Luc is one of your top three players……

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 9:40 AM CST up reply actions  

I would just add

That:

…if the team has no on-court leader (assuming Jackson isn’t in one of his transcendent phases)

…if they’ve tried and failed and failed to improve their bad defense (yes, without Moute, but he can’t play enough positions at one time)

…if they show no confidence, identity or unity (going so far as to talk to the press about not having those things)

…then you are seeing ripe possibilities that my eyes can’t.

AFAIK, having the press (Woelfel, though I’m not complaining) talk about everybody being on the table for trades doesn’t improve any of the listed problems.

This is a SNAFU situation, and we don’t have an A-Team – not that I can see.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Steve.....I know you're busy working on your retraction but.....

Your whole argument is based on thje fact that BJ isn’t going to improve, and if that is true, you are 100% correct. However, if BJ follows others like Billups, T-Mac et al and improves his game to where he is shooting 44-45%, you are 100% wrong.

Victor-two points

1. Didn’t you say we need a 20ppg scorer? Might BJ be that person? Or can it not be him because he’s not a true PG?
2. Miller and Lawson during their PG clinic shot 4-15(26.7%)in 56 minutes. If BJ was guarding them did he not do a good job of denying them good shots? Sure they got 20 assists but is that all BJs fault. BJ outscored the pair 30-19 in 20 less minutes

If you’re keeping Bogut or Jennings I think there’s only one answer, and I don’t see the point in keeping them both as you mentioned

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 8:42 AM CST reply actions  

I was hoping to give this thing 24 hours to breathe before jumping in and responding to everyone, but I see that isn't going over well.

I have responses ready and loaded to most comments, and I’ll do a bit around 12PM CST.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 9:07 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

my vote

says a waiting period on your part is perfectly appropriate.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Ok, here we go

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

(1) People have cited late bloomers like Chauncey Billups, T-Mac, etc, but when I looked at those guys they didn’t get many opportunities in their early years while shooting fairly decent. In contrast, Jennings has had more opportunities than most NBA players (not just young played, but certainly even more so). So I’d venture to say players who shoot what he has over their first approx 2300 shots don’t get significantly better in their next 2300 shots. Just eyeballing it here, but it looks like Billups took about 6 seasons to hit that mark for attempts, while Jennings has it in 2yrs + 13 games. Are there any players that have “bucked” the 2300 shot hypothesis to a degree worthy of note? Are they similar in size and skillset to Jennings? If so, then I’m ready to listen.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

(2) I don't like starting a series of numbers and then not finishing it

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

C- Chauncey played 2200 minutes his first year

Then 1500(in only 45 games)in his second. Third year must have been injured as he played only 300 minutes in 13 games. Can the amount of shots BJ takes be a product of the team he plays on? I agree 100% is he is shooting 40% he has got to go, but if he improves….I keep him, let’s ride it out until the end of the year.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Those Billups shot attempts are where the real difference emerges though. But based on the fact that very few agree with me, wouldn't now be a time to get value for him.

I understand wanting to take the gamble, but what’s the max payoff even if correct? Where’s his ceiling.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know

And no one does….but if he could shoot 44-45% at that volume would you want to keep him? Would 10m a year be okay for 20ppg at that %? I think so.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Assuming no extra assists? Hmmm.

I don’t like the idea of starting a shoot-first small guy in any case, but maybe the deal wouldn’t cripple the Bucks.

Then again, people hated Mo Williams for that very performance level the minute the ink dried on his deal for less $

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 1:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I see your point but if it's between Bogut and Jennings

To me it’s no contest.

Bogut should bring back more, Bogut is fragile, without BJ we have absolutely no one who can score. If we keep both we are forever in NBA limbo.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 1:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree on that last part for sure.

That’s why I think all Bucks fans, and specifically the well-educated basketball community at Brew Hoop sees a rebuild necessary.

Once they acknowledge it, they will be at the fork in the road where we all stand now.

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Could always try to extend Jennings now

For like Thad Young money(can you do that with this CBA). Accomplishes two things:

1. Says to BJ we think you are a part of our future and we want you here

2. Saves $$$$ if he improves

Of course you could get the inverse of #2 but it might be a good gamble

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I was thinking Sleepy Floyd and Michael Adams

But niether one of those guys starteed out of College. Both of them liked to hoist it though

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Yea, Mo doesn't have the quickness. But he shot better and people hated him in the scorer PG role

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Also more assists

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

The assists will/should come

With more offensive talent(Tobias). Those Bucks we a little faster paced too, no?

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Mo comparison is scary but may not fit

I hated Mo cuz his ego grew, he was selfish, and he was far from smart.

I can see Jennings having to face those issues, #1 and #2, but I think he’s smarter. Don’t know if he makes the same changes with a fat contract. (If he does, he won’t want Milwaukee; he’ll go to a coastal big city.)

There is an aspect to the RealGM reaction that I reject. Some of them thought you were just trying to start a fire for controversy’s sake. For a writer, controversy is more positive than negative, but I believe you were trying to take an independent analysis of a tricky and important matter. Good for you.

I’m not yet on board your bus. Though I’m happy to wave as you drive by. IMO all we know now is what Jennings has been. Don’t know where he’s headed. Still think he has a streak of hero in him, but don’t know if and how that will convert into success.

To me, a super-smart GM wold earn his salary (and his bonus) by reading Jennings deeply and perceptively. And would then make the savvy decision to keep or move him. Of course, we have Hammond and we have Kohl. May the sporting gods give us wisdom.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

This is true
Some of them thought you were just trying to start a fire for controversy’s sake. For a writer, controversy is more positive than negative, but I believe you were trying to take an independent analysis of a tricky and important matter

I know Steve has maintained this stance since he joined BrewHoop.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Sad thing is that right before Brew Hoop (on JS Online)

I was the Jennings supporter guy. I was the one saying his 3PT shooting early in his rookie year signaled skill and accuracy.

Then, as the hundreds and thousands of shots passed by on far below-average efficiency, I lost faith.

At least you see it as a consistent stance, but I really wasn’t when the samples were smaller and I could project his skills with my imagination

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by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Hard to dispute your findings

I just wish this damn franchise can get things right again. I grew up with the Bucks …my first game was 1970-ish against the Detroit Pistons of Bob Lanier, Curtis Rowe, and Dave Bing. I got all their autographs too ….

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Just checked Adams stats

In 1990-1991 in 66 games he shot 564 3s in 66 games(8.55/gm)His %?, a whopping 29.6

Thing with Mo is that he was paired with Redd so we had a shooter already. If we had Redd in his prime and BJ was jacking 17 shots a game, ya I might be pissed.

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

Look at that schedule. They’ll have 10 wins at the end of Feb. and finish with 26.

by toasterrebound on Jan 20, 2012 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

No 8th seed ..no .500 ....

I want bad, bad, bad ….for higher, higher draft pick …and no no Skiles

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 9:27 AM CST reply actions  

kissing the sister (not on the lips) is OK if it enhances legit sibling bond

…between franchise and fan base. Would the 8th slot do that? At a minimal level, perhaps.But I’m leery. Always leery of Bucks moves that produce glasses half full. Mediocrity thrives on glasses half full.

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 10:01 AM CST reply actions  

As the great George Brett said:

“If a tie is like kissing your sister, a loss is like kissing your grandma with her teeth out.”

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

My next FanPost

Is on the Rules of Consanguinity

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Improve the bucks

Much more than jennings, I would blame bogut & skiles a lot more. Bogut hasnt lived up to #1 pick expectations(sure hes good but not a star) & doesnt demand the ball at all. Bogut should be getting up to 15 shots a game but he lets jennings be trigger happy. Then we have skiles who other than defense cannot seem to get his players to score or get them to calm down & not choke games like the bobcats/kings game. This happend last year also so does he not learn?

Now jennings, he has the talent to be a GOOD player but not a STAR player. So far this season if you take out jacksons 34 & 25 point games hes making 10.8ppg shooting 30.2% FG & 24% 3pt vs season avg of 13.7ppg/36.8%FG/29.2%3pt. Delfino(39.6%FG & 36.4), Dunlevy(32.0^35.7), Ilyasova(39.6&36.8). So jennings passing to these guys wouldnt make much of a difference since theyre all shooters & at an avg of 40% its not much better than jennings taking the shot!

Then you can say guys like beno/leuer/livingston/harris have done well but they dont get consistent minutes. Leuer who has been starting doesnt seem to get more than 20 minutes oddly, harris looks ok at times but theyre both rookies so cant base/judge them much.

Much as I would like to see the bucks in the playoffs, it would be better for them if they tank this season(2013 also?) & get a top 5 pick. Then get a sf/pf who can slash to the rim, too many shooters on the bucks all the way to the pf position who like to shoot. Then hope to get a pair of player who have a lot of talent like durant/westbrook/hardenevans/cousins/curry instead of getting guys like jennings/sanders with the 10-20 slot pick who may or may not even be “avg” players or worse turn out like yi & joe who shouldnt even be in the league.

Tank>draft>change coach if no result>tank>draft>tank>tank tank>repeat>contract lol.

by Lawyer-Up on Jan 20, 2012 10:21 AM CST reply actions  

Reason for trading him

Is what he could bring in return. It would have to involve other players to improve the team.

by toasterrebound on Jan 20, 2012 11:42 AM CST reply actions  

Not necessarily ....

Rebuilding most often means getting worse before getting better.

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure

There are options, just stating a realty.

by toasterrebound on Jan 20, 2012 9:18 PM CST up reply actions  

If the Bucks are going to rebuild yet again (and that would be the wisest option)

I think it’s almost an imperative that the Bucks fire Skiles, although I think most of us realize that by now. Not only do I think he’s not going to tolerate rebuilding, but he’s not going to be the kind of guy who lets young players go through growing pains on the court while letting veterans take up a great deal of time on the bench. Then again, most rebuilding teams (at least the ones who do it well) don’t have many veterans to worry about getting playing time, unlike the Bucks.

by Jacob Grinyer on Jan 20, 2012 1:56 PM CST reply actions  

You Have To Be Out Of Your Mind!

First off, this blizzard of a critique shows how fouled up not just the Bucks are but Milwaukee fans too. Here’s what you have: a potentially world-class combo in Bogut and Jennings. The front office has tried to bring in that 3rd piece, last year w/ Corey and this year with Jax, both heavy on scoring the ball but not much on hustle stuff and defense, but that’s what the other cast of characters are for: your Delfino’s and Luke M., etc. The White Elephant in the room is Scott Skiles. He commits the dictatorial error that NEVER works w/ nba talent: force them to be someone they are not. Skiles tries to force a system on players rather than adapting to the roster and coaching to win not just prove a point. e.g., Portland. They were committed to the slow paced, half court game, ala Andre Miller, Camby, etc. Now with Felton loving the fast pace the Portland offense has totally changed to fit Felton, Wallace, Batum, etc., all who can run the court, etc. It’s at least fun to watch and the players are happy and usually that means some decent returns, as Portland continues to show year after year in spite of horrific injuries, etc.

Jackson is an attitude problem but he also wants to prove he’s worth another contract. He wants to win and be part of winning. He’s a thug, but so what? My prediction? Skiles will be fired soon but if he makes it to the off season he will not be back. If he couldn’t find a way to work with Corey Maggette, a very talented player and a very nice guy too, he’s not going to get along with Jax. It’s gonna get ugly folks.

Get a player’s coach in here, let Jennings and Bogut get hooked up properly, let your wing scorer score and the rest do the rest. It would be fun to watch and the Bucks might just win.

Jacob, next article should be on the team’s offensive performance relative to the rest of the league during Skiles tenure. It’s ugly. And, in Jennings defense, even under this bizzare regime, last year Jennings put up similar #s to Mike Conley, Jrue Holiday and Kyle Lowry. Just imagine…

Jon C.

by jonmillscohen on Jan 20, 2012 3:25 PM CST reply actions  

Skiles lets the players run the offense...I have no idea what you are talking when you say Skiles is a "dictator" that forces Bogut and Jennings "to be someone they are not."

Not sure that second to last line is quite accurate either.

Appreciate the enthusiasm though

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

You'd think the Editor would know....

Steve, First off I have it first hand that Corey sat down with Skiles and went over why he wasn’t playing, etc. Bottom line: Corey wasn’t hustling in practice, diving for balls, defensive effort, etc. Corey was a 20 pts/night guy, a real pro, @ $10M p/year and an awfully nice person. He knows what he’s doing. Skiles? Not so much. This is where Jax comments about “identity” are right on the money. Skiles has an ideology of the game and enforces it no matter the cost. Defense, effort, etc. Thus, a guy like Delfino who doesn’t really have skills like Corey or Jax can get more minutes. He fits. The big money scorers don’t. It’s criminal. How ownership puts up with this only illustrates the huge disconnect between front office and the court.

Second, here’s the stats, readily available on the other PGs mentioned for 2010-11 p/g/avg:
GP/MIN/REB/AST/STL/BLK/TO/PTS
Conley: 81/35.5/3.0/6.5/1.8/.02/2.2/13.7
Jennings: 63/34.4/3.7/4.8/1.5/.03/2.3/16.2
Holiday: 82/35.4/4.0/6.5/1.5/.04/2.7/14.0
Lowry: 75/34.2/4.1/6.7/1.4/.03/2.1/13.5
In sum, except for Jennings being out more, the stats are basically a dead heat. What are Conley, Holiday and Lowry doing this year? Blowing up! And, on basic stats Jennings is right there, except for Lowry. Jennings is in the prime of his career mired in a Skiles offense/defense that was dead last, 91.9 pts/game, last year. As of today, the Bucks are exactly the same (and have risen 7 spots just because 7 other teams are sucking even worse than last year. Yep, we suck the same as last year and that is an improvement.)

So, it appears the statements you challenged are both, rather easily, shown to be not just right, but right on. Look at Captian Jax last two big games… WINS. And, lastly, what could you possibly be referring to when you say “the players run the offense”? I suppose in a truistic sense you are right. They are out there playing, but you don’t have to watch and follow Bucks basketball for long and come to the conclusion that the coach and his philosophy are holding up a nice group of players from succeeding.

All the best,
Jon Cohen
allthebestjm at gmail dot com

by jonmillscohen on Jan 20, 2012 7:09 PM CST up reply actions  

What does Corey Maggette have to do with Jennings and Bogut? They play big minutes and get to do whatever they want on offense. You said they don't and that Skiles forces them to be what they are not.

That was my statement. Your response is about something completely different and a player in a far different situation. I think you are talking past me, not to me.

The second comparison you give is the glossy overcoat. My article gets at the guts of the comparison…the real inner workings that matter in how the sausage is made. If you don’t care how the sausage is made and like points and rbis, then again we aren’t have a real discussion.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 7:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe so...

Maybe I am talking past you and yea, I read the stats piece, which was a ton of work I’m sure. But the premise is just misguided: Milwaukee needs to rebuild and let’s start at the point…. or let’s get a different $10M guy in here… or whatever. In college sports that might be possible or if Skiles had a big tradition of winning and thus power, ala Phil Jackson then so be it.

Let’s start the rebuilding, yes. But let’s start at the most obvious problem, the coach (and probably many more that let this situation become a joke in the NBA..). e.g., why is it that Milwaukee loses every single first quarter? Jennings failing at defense? My instinct says it’s not that simple. Basketball is an organic game and the ball finds energy. The Bucks don’t have that vibe at all. How many games have we seen 19 points at the end of one?… But, back to coaching: I imagine it would be a situation much like Minnesota. Get a Rick Adelman sort in there who knows how to handle the big money big talent guys and has their respect because of his record over decades and you get players playing well and even listening and learning a system, which in Adelman’s case is just score more than the other team while I get out of the players way… a novel idea that Milwaukee could learn from. You can play D, but in the end you simply have to score one more point than the other team. At 92 points a game that will not happen often, with Jennings or Jackson or Magette or whoever.

And lastly and I’ll stop: No one cares how a brat is made, they eat it and if it tastes bad they spit it out and change brands. It’s up to the brat-makers to make good tasting brats, if they do, success; if not, a new line of work soon follows. We need a new Master Bratmeister not a new set of brat factory workers.

Nice work,
A Frustrated Milwaukee Fan

by jonmillscohen on Jan 21, 2012 1:11 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm all for good brats and good Milwaukee Bucks basketball. I know we agree there.

Thanks for the follow ups by the way, this has been a fun exchange. Hope to see you around in the comments more often.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 8:00 AM CST up reply actions  

How about Jennings to Utah for Devin Harris?

Word has it that the Jazz are shopping Harris.

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 3:36 PM CST reply actions  

I had to watch Devin Harris try to play basketball last night...wowza

He has definitively fallen into the abyss

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 3:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Tommy

Wash your mouth out with soap….or your typing finger

"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian

by CanadaBucks on Jan 20, 2012 5:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha!
salmon is the inferior performance.

Sounds so 2011!

Don’t think it was intentional, but I found it hilarious ;)

Fear the 'Dear'? You're damn right I'm scared of my wife!

by Big Crazy Dave on Jan 20, 2012 4:41 PM CST reply actions  

Is Salmon the player version of Hammonds?

http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.

by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 20, 2012 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Future promise

I remember T J Ford being forcast to deliver us to the promised land…… then, one day he was gone. I think BJ will follow TJ’s path.

by DAVEO623 on Jan 20, 2012 5:26 PM CST reply actions  

the combination hurt

T J Ford was defined as a real PG – and he fizzled.

Ramon Sessions was a not-real PG – and many thought he sizzled.

Tough times for me. Maybe that’s why I’m not yet ready to give up on Brandon. (Udrih doesn’t look like a PG, and Livingston hasn’t had a big footprint.)

by unklchuk on Jan 20, 2012 5:45 PM CST up reply actions  

We will never solve this if we keep focusing on ONE player ....

This thing called the Bucks is not a cold sore, it’s an epidemic.

by tommyr on Jan 20, 2012 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

i need Bogut studies

ahem, when is the last time big man world class Bogut took over/won a game?

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 20, 2012 5:52 PM CST reply actions  

22 months ago

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 6:19 PM CST reply actions  

saaaaad trombooooone

http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.

by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 20, 2012 7:16 PM CST up reply actions  

WATCH THE GAME TONIGHT STEVE??

by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 20, 2012 9:02 PM CST reply actions  

Yea, it was delightful.

Jennings had one hell of a night.

SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn

by Steve von Horn on Jan 20, 2012 9:09 PM CST up reply actions  

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