My Approach To Understanding Brandon Jennings (And Everyone Else)
Just a few days ago I wrote this article suggesting Brandon Jennings should not be considered a core player if the Milwaukee Bucks want to build a championship caliber team (but why else do teams bother building cores anyways, right?). It didn't exactly go over well. Most people like the youth, potential, competitive fire and everything else that comes with Jennings, and aren't ready to consider the possibility that he might not be the proper player on which to pin the future hopes of the franchise. I get that. Honestly. Now when it comes to the point that when one other Bucks fan on the planet actually shares my skepticism (victor s) it is so inconceivable that a wacky alternative explanation -- one of us created a fake internet personality and posted similar opinions under both screen names to create a small two-person agreement -- is explored, that confuses me. Anyways, before I become the guy for whom everyone wants to take my temperature on Jennings after every play and every game, I might try to explain my general approach and how the article came into the world.
A great place to start is the closing paragraph of the Jennings article:
So here we are, 2600 words later but not far from where we started. Once again, the tantalizing results are contained in a small sample size, while the overwhelming weight of the evidence casts a dark and expansive shadow on Jennings as a player. It's almost odd that I timed this post for the best stretch of play Jennings has ever shown, but maybe he can't do what I think an offensive centerpiece or core player needs to be able to anyways. With Jennings it feels like death by a thousand cuts. Never anything major to signal crippling inefficiency or limits on his future development, but rather a creeping mediocrity that largely goes unnoticed amid a sea of other more expensive and eye-catching wreckage.
If you want to know how I feel when Brandon Jennings goes off for 36 points on 15-26 shooting, with 5 assists, 2 steals and 3 turnovers at Madison Square Garden in a rout of the New York Knicks, it's exactly like you feel. Ecstatic. Amazed. Glad to have witnessed it. More than happy to write about it. I love when the Bucks win. Each game is its own separate experience to me, because almost anything could happen in a single game. The unpredictability is a big part of the reason why we all love sports.
Each game has a unique story about why a team won or lost, and that's the allure of our game recaps. We relive the experience and help people understand what exactly happened on a given night that contributed to the win or the loss. The focus is not on what a player has done over his career, but how he showed up that night. We still bring in our own understandings of each players true talent level to contextualize and rationalize the event, but the event is what matters. If John Salmons had scored 46 points on 21-25 shooting when the Sacramento Kings played the Bucks back on January 5th, would you have changed your general opinion on him as a player or his true talent level? Of course not. Anything can happen on any given night.
Then again, the Bucks' start to the season isn't exactly unpredictable. Neither is the start by the Miami Heat or the Chicago Bulls. Why? Because the top players on the Bulls and Heat have established resumes as elite players in the NBA. They have proven over time they are a cut above the rest, and while anything could happen to them in a single game, they will beat opponents more often than not when given enough chances. This broad view is what colors my long-term opinion of Brandon Jennings and every other player in the NBA. Allow me to explain it in different terms.
Let's say you had a quarter you knew to be perfectly weighted, such that the probability of it landing on heads or tails is 50-50. However, with each flip their are two mutually exclusive options. The coin can either land on heads or it can land on tails. It can't land on both at the same time. In other words, you can't flip and achieve the mean on any single event. These are random binomial outcomes with normal distribution: every event is random (100% or 0%), but still centered around a true mean (50-50). Each toss is a variation based on luck.
Probabilities do not tell you what is going to happen, but they do tell you what is likely to happen. If you toss a coin 20 time and get 15 heads and 5 tails the outcomes was unlikely, but the probabilities have not changed. Over time you would expect the ratio to regress to the mean (50-50). The coin is still not more likely to be tails on the next flip. Rather, the odds stay exactly the same, and in truth any sequence of twenty tosses is just as unlikely as the one described above, even if the distribution looks random.
What the heck does any of this have to do with sports or NBA basketball? Plenty. Players aren't coins though, and we can't ever precisely know their true talent level (ex: Brandon Jennings' make-miss probabilities), but that's a wonderful thing. We can never have enough information to truly know a player's exact talent level (even the coin probabilities are premised on an infinite number of events), but with each game we get insight into a player's revealed talent level. These are the stats we all look to, and this is why we look at them. At some point, there is enough information to make a reasonable estimate of a player's talents going forward.
Just like with the coin flip, no NBA player can shoot their career percentage on a single shot. Only two things can happen: they either make the shot (100%), or they miss the shot (0%). Yet no player shoots 100 percent, and no player shoots 0 percent. the random individual occurrences are center around a true mean that reveals its self more concretely with each passing shot or outcome. In baseball, the minimum threshold for making a reasonable estimate of talent level is around 700 plate appearances. I just happen to think the same minimum threshold in NBA basketball might be somewhere around 2300 shots.
Jennings has been given more opportunities to reveal his talent level than nearly every other player during his career in the NBA with regard to shots, so it seems reasonable to me to use this large sample size as the basis for projecting his true talent level with a decent amount of confidence. What I mean is that I don't expect Jennings to shoot spectacularly better (ie- to a level well above-average for his position) over his next 2300 shot attempts compared to his first 2300 attempts. I haven't looked closely into this 2300 shot threshold yet, but I honestly can't think of any player who made huge jumps from league-worst to above-average, and certainly not one who fits the physical profile of Jennings.
Still, he is young and players are not coins. The mean is bound to change over time, because unlike the coin we can never know the true talent level of a player, only the revealed talent that emerges over time. The odds change based on situation as well, so better decision making with the ball we have seen this year might actually help to improve his established talent level over time if he can keep up the shooting numbers. Brandon Jennings is never going to shoot 38.5 percent on a single shot, but when you give him a couple thousand shots, he did. My problem is that common sense still says he is due for a regression over the course of the season, at least if you believe 2300 NBA shot attempts tell you something meaningful about a player's talent level. I do. It's as simple as that.
I don't dislike Brandon Jennings. I dislike the Bucks taking the long odds in the gamble and hoping he is some sort of outlier in the NBA landscape that can turn 2300 shots worth of league-worst type performance and suddenly turn around to produce all-star shooting efficiency in his next 2300 shots. It's a dangerous gamble for a franchise teetering on a rebuild to give big money on Jennings and pray for him to be that once-in-a-decade outlier. That was the point of the article. Trusting the odds doesn't always pay off, and I could have lost a lot of money to someone whom I bet heads would not come up 15 times in 20 tosses of a coin, by my belief is that playing the odds is still always the right thing to do and will pay off over time. To me, it's what an organization serious about building a championship contender does.
I would love to be wrong about this. I will be the first one to happily admit the mistake when Jennings is leading the Bucks to deep playoffs runs and piling up all-star appearances. I desperately want the Bucks to become a great team during my lifetime (born in 1985), and if Brandon Jennings can overcome the pile of evidence that says he can't be an impact player I will be positively ecstatic. It's just one hell of a gamble...
**Update: I added a table thanks to a suggestion by TheJay and took players similar in size/position to Jennings from this 2000+ shot list (first 3 yrs), and then compared to the total career percentages. Here's what I found.
| Loose comparison of first three years (2000+ shot attempts) vs. career shooting percentages | ||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Player | Initial Attempts | FG% | Career Attempts | FG% | Change | |||
| Jason Williams "White Chocolate" | 2280 | 38.40% | 7699 | 39.80% | 1.40% | |||
| Jason Kidd | 2679 | 38.70% | 14941 | 40.10% | 1.40% | |||
| Raymond Felton | 2904 | 39.60% | 6012 | 41.10% | 0.50% | |||
| Larry Hughes | 2366 | 39.60% | 9189 | 40.60% | 1.00% | |||
| Nick Van Exel | 3106 | 41.00% | 11458 | 39.50% | -0.50% | |||
| Mookie Blaylock | 3106 | 41.20% | 11499 | 40.90% | -0.30% | |||
| Damon Stoudamire | 3627 | 41.20% | 10662 | 40.60% | -0.60% | |||
| Stephon Marbury | 2991 | 41.70% | 13324 | 43.30% | 1.60% | |||
| T.J. Ford | 2089 | 41.80% | 4215 | 43.30% | 1.50% | |||
| Gilbert Arenas | 2478 | 42.00% | 8786 | 42.10% | 0.10% | |||
| Randy Foye | 2134 | 42.00% | 3381 | 41.20% | -0.80% | |||
| Baron Davis | 2731 | 42.10% | 11767 | 41.00% | -1.10% | |||
| Vernon Maxwell | 2701 | 42.10% | 9878 | 39.80% | -2.30% | |||
| Jason Terry | 3186 | 43.00% | 12947 | 44.80% | 1.80% | |||
| Allen Iverson | 3967 | 43.10% | 19906 | 42.50% | -0.6 | |||
| Ben Gordon | 3546 | 43.10% | 7579 | 43.50% | 0.40% |
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Here's the problem with using total shots
I understand your logic, and to a certain extent I agree. Players who get a certain number of shots are going to establish averages that they are more or less tied to long-term. This is, to paraphrase, a definition of their offensive talent level.
But the whole context of team is completely absent here. When he was drafted, Jennings was easily the team’s second best offensive player (behind the then-improving Bogut). He was the best guard we had by a long shot. Here’s the lineup when he was drafted in June of 2010:
Michael Redd (on IR), Charlie Bell, Royal Ivey, Luke Ridnour, and Jerry Stackhouse. I’ll even throw in Carlos Delfino. Now, of those players, as of 2009…which were better offensive guards? Ridnour was definitely more efficient, but he had very little room for improvement (and had a career year). Stackhouse was crafty, but old. Bell and Ivey were…well, the less said the better. And Delfino is a specialist, nothing more.
Of course Jennings is going to take all of the shots with that backcourt! Nobody else in that group is capable of doing the things he can in terms of scoring. So he got into the first-option role, and didn’t leave it until the struggling team landed John Salmons (who rescued the season).
Next year, who comes and who goes? Everybody except for Redd (on IR again) and Delfino moves on to a different team, Salmons is re-signed, and the team brings on Gooden and Maggette. Salmons takes a huge step back, Gooden suffers from plantar fasciitis, and Maggette can’t play enough defense to get meaningful court time. Earl Boykins comes on and is fun to have around, but he’s not better than Jennings. Keyon Dooling? Definitely not better than Jennings.
So what does Jennings do in order to try to get wins? He shoots! And shoots, and shoots, and shoots, and then breaks his foot, then comes back and keeps shooting. There’s no other way to get points on that team! We all saw it, and we all know it.
And other teams knew it, and were able to let the still-unable-to-legally-drink Brandon shoot his team out of games while he was trying to keep them in it. Efficiency is something everyone wants, but it takes time to develop. Jennings made the playoffs his rookie year, and he’s not the kind of guy to settle for less, and he believes he has the ability to carry the offensive load.
The problem that we both agree on is that Jennings’ belief was unfounded his first two seasons. His percentages were terrible. But what about this year? Not only does he have a better supporting cast in his backcourt (Livingston, Udrih, Dunleavy, and Jackson are huge upgrades from last year), but he’s performing better. His FG%, 3PT%, and assists are all up from last year, he’s finishing better at the rim, and he’s still taking care of the ball.
This team might not look it, but it’s a more talented team than last year. That talent allows Jennings to run the offense based on what the defense is giving him, because he can trust his teammates more if he gets them the ball.
This long ramble is not to say that Jennings is Allen Iverson 2.0 (now with court vision!), even though he resembles A.I. to an extent. He’s the future, but if this team wants a championship, they need to get him a partner. Someone with decent size and athleticism and a versatile offensive game that can work both inside and out. When that player gets here, this team will actually have something to work with on offense.
But in the meantime, Jennings is the man, and if he doesn’t regress to last year’s version, he’s a keeper.
(crosses fingers that we’re not in for a 3/17 shooting night tomorrow against Miami)
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:15 PM CST reply actions
I just think those 2300 shots reflect his shooting ability.
That 2300 number used in the article includes his current season as well (except for NYK), so I don’t see how it’s unfair or unreasonable to think it might be representative of his ability.
Overall though, I get it. I don’t like the “everyone else is the problem” thing much, but rolling the dice is still something worth pursuing is what you are saying. See the process through.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:22 PM CST up reply actions
Just for fun, consider the fact that Joe Alexander took 251 total shots in his NBA career.
Yet everyone was fairly certain it wasn’t ever going to click, despite his youth and inexperience.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
To be fair,
this is JOE ALEXANDER we’re talking about. The same guy who had absolutely zero basketball knowledge until he got some actual coaching in the D-League.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
Raw talent Joe Alexander isn't fair? A guy all about potential?
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
The Joe Alexander you put in caps was referred to differently on draft night.
251 shots later he is written in all caps as an aberration not fit for discussion.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:39 PM CST up reply actions
Believe you me,
I had more excitement for Yi Jianlian than I did for Joe Alexander. And I was PISSED about drafting Yi.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
Okay, replace Joe with Yi in what I said
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
In both cases,
Neither player showed ANY improvement on what they were drafted on. Joe couldn’t stop fouling people, and Yi wanted to take long 2s all the time, and nothing else. Jennings has at least shown both the willingness and ability to improve his game both inside and out.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
For 13 games.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:50 PM CST up reply actions
We also gave up on Yi and Joe well before their 3rd year with the team
I think you’re putting too much stock into Brandon’s failure of a sophomore year.
Let’s revisit this after, say, 35 contests?
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
Sure, full year sounds even better.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
Unless of course they trade him.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
Lol
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
BUT I WILL ALLOW THIS TO PLAY OUT, HONESTLY
I can’t really do anything about it, and I am going to be watching Bucks games, so I’ll be watching along with everyone else.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
A guy who was a phenomenal athlete
and not much else. Some people can play naturally, some people can learn, some people can do both, and some people can’t do either. Alexander falls into the fourth category. Jennings is certainly in the first category, and we all hope that he moves into the third (the best of categories).
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
Sure, it's representative of his ability in a certain context
but that context has been “OK, we’re going to play defense, and maybe someone will score some points?” He took that upon himself, which is why he shot so much.
Jennings will peak as a player when he’s 25 or 26, I think. If his averages come back down to 2010-11 levels before then, then it’s absolutely a loss for the Bucks. But he’s trending upwards on everything…I find that hard to overlook.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:39 PM CST up reply actions
It's not overlooked, it's included in the numbers I used.
It’s all part of his career. Every shot counts the same
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
But not every shot is taken under the same conditions
That’s my sticking point.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
This is still the 24-ranked offense in the NBA.
Not too much different than before, especially considering the injuries.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
You make a fair point.
Here I am crying about teamwork, when the team’s performance hasn’t changed that much and Jennings is one of the few constants.
I mean, LALALALALA I’M NOT LISTENING.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:44 PM CST up reply actions
But still, my 2300 shot hypothesis is just that, a guess.
I couldn’t even nail down my confidence level or error bar for this prediction at the moment.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
But I'm scared he's approaching 2+ std deviation range for a normal distribution...to get where we want him to be
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
I'd make a trig joke here,
but I’m not that smart. Or that funny.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
You should
Look to other players besides Jennings, his talent level almost ensures him being at least an above average player. Look at Bogut, Stephen Jackson and pretty much the rest of the team as being a problem. Jennings has been the only buck playing consistently well this year. The bucks won’t get a D.Rose, John Wall or Irving anytime soon, but having a just below Allstar PG isnt a problem, they should just get some slightly more than adequate talent around him. And also you should just wait 30 games or so because this is a small sample size, BJ is very young still and hes playing the best right now. You shuldn’t be going so far out of your way to criticize BJ when hes the only one showing a competitive and well thus far
I've taken the larger sample of his entire NBA career for the basis of this, including the small sample from this season.
The issue I have is that the sample is not small compared to most NBA players in their first few years. For example, Jennings will oustrip the first six seasons of Chauncey Billups’ career when it comes to attempts by the time he finished this season. Did we know anything about Chauncey Billups’ shooting ability by then? Yeah.
Does the compression of the opportunities affect the analysis? I’m not sure, but I think so. Guys come into the league as good shooters and continue to be good shooters. Guys come into the league as bad shooters and continue to be bad shooters. A select few master one or two spots on the court (corner 3s) and improve their shooting in very small bit roles. However, when it comes to high-usage guys I struggle to think of even one who drastically improved their shooting efficiency after their first 2300+ shots.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
Steve, aren't you uneasy...
…that all your evidence comes from what Jennings has been in the past? And you propose that’s as a strong predictor of what he will be in the future.
How do you measure learning on the job? How do you incorporate intangibles (like a hunger to be good) that may drive him to achieve? Those things aren’t included in the past results. They don’t show in NBA infancy.
Here comes another of my allegories that “reaches out there” to try to make a point clear. Say your nephew was 11 months old. Say you had been video-taping him for the last 3 months. Say you analyzed and edited the tape, and then with a heavy heart went to the parents. “It pains me to say this,” you tell them, “but your son (my nephew) is never going to walk. I’ve documented 3 months of him making tries and never succeeding. He’s tried over and over and it’s just not working.”
And then a week later the parents call to say he’s walking all around the living room on his own.
Jennings isn’t quite that young, but he is young. And he comes from a swashbuckling style of basketball. Has a hell of a lot to learn to play the NBA game.
I don’t think you can predict Jennings future by looking at his past. He may or may not be an NBA success. I’m more optimistic that you are. But that comes from looking at the man, not the stats. From thinking that I see a streak of potential hero in his character. Knowing that turning the streak into production is a very tricky business. But the odds are certainly a lot higher than a lottery ticket – and the payoff is considerable.
It's something we do in sport all the time. See someone play, look at their performance and then project them forward. I've to be comfortable with the concept, it's how teams are constructed and roster are made.
I’m not sure the infant thing fits all that well, as Jennings looks pretty similar in size and skill to his first two seasons. If you don’t think Jennings can be predicted reasonably now, how much evidence would you need? Or do you just not predict what players will do? I’m sure even you have a threshold, and for me the sheer number of opportunities (a superstar level of them) that Jennings has already had feels like it tells us something about his shooting.
I don’t see him as a static performer for the rest of his career, but when you say “the payoff is considerable” I don’t quite jump on board. Lou Williams and Mo Williams never won anybody anything.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
The height of the hoop never changes, the size of the ball never changes, the diameter of the rim never changes.
Shooting just seems like something you can either do well, or you can’t.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
But Jennings is shooting better this year.
And those things are constants, but things like wrist angles, release, and hands-in-face change on every single play.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
He is, and they do. Situational probability comes into play, which is why I mentioned his better decision making this year possibly changing the calculus a bit.
But remember, it has been 13 games…
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
An insurance company would likely turn a profit with your analytical technique
They’d apply it to a group of players, and it may well be profitably predictive.
But our situation is one guy, and a rather unusual man he is. Forgive me if I see enough potential in that guy to go against the odds for a while.
(But what I really want is for our GM to be very savvy and to study Jennings very carefully. And then decide whether he’s good core material or not. We likely don’t have that kind of GM.)
Jennings makes free throws reliably, especially in crunch time.
Therefore I stubbornly conclude he can become a good shooter.
I'm sold!
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 21, 2012 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
He still misses way too many for my liking
He should be at 85-88%, not at 78%. That might be only one more make in every few games, but it still counts.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 21, 2012 11:50 PM CST up reply actions
I can actually agree with that
I was thinking that Mo Williams was a decent BJ comparison. Jennings Passing ability hasnt translated that well yet, but i feel that the lack of talent on this team could be a big reason, he might be averaging 7 or 8 assists if the talent level were higher. BUT…what i’m saying is that BJ isn’t as much a problem as the rest of his team is. Mo Williams or Lou Williams would easily be the best players on the bucks team if they were on it, Steve Jackson has been playing terribly, Bogut may never be the same as he was at his best, and Tobias Harris will take sometime. I think this for you is more about Jenning’s not being the superstar level talent everyone thought he would be after his first month in the league, but the truth is that he is showing signs of becoming a solid NBA point guard. I wouldn’t say that this sample size is enough to make a judgement on him, but it seems to have been enough for you to write him off. Are you really trying to say that out of all the players on the bucks roster Jennings is the worst one ? Bottom line, Jennings maybe a second tier level point guard, but if you get some dynamic players around him he could average 16 ppg and 7 or 8 apg and make the bucks a playoff team.
by Peter Berry on Jan 22, 2012 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
No, I'm only saying he is the sole player the Bucks actually have to make a big decision about for starting a new core to compete for a title.
The rest of the players take care of themselves and are eliminated from the conversation by age, contract, or both.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 22, 2012 12:26 AM CST up reply actions
Jennings and Bogut shouldnt go ANYWHERE
What are we going to find by getting rid of them. Nothing. What we need is to hit on another young guy like we did on Jennings. Bogut was more predictible that he would be good he was the first pick. Jennings was a complete surprise. We need another surprise. Harris looks like he could be that guy but I have my doubts. Sanders doesnt seem to be him either no matter how much I would love that. Ill admit Im a Syracuse fan when I say this so take this however you want. But we should get Dion Waiters next year if he comes out. He is going to be a stud. Such a natural basketball player and will only get better. Great SG. Having him with Jennings and Bogut with Harris and in my dreams Sanders to just build on with some Vets, I would be excited about the future of this team. We are for sure missing that last piece though. No need to get rid of the guys we have.
And one other thing. No more of these Vets on one year contracts that fail. Jefferson, Salmons, Jackson, Magette. Not working. Use that money on a young player.
great first post...
By Mitch, spot on. The most recent post’s original point also, which is what I’d like to expand on. Assuming Steve’s right and gambling Jennings will be the outlier statistically who truly improves enough to be a core guy to a championship team, does this automatically mean that the correct course of action is to trade him asap for whatever we can get? I would suggest this to be a fallacious assumption. How many titles have been captured by teams who started in rebuilding mode? I think most titles have been won with superstars. We can guess we might, just might have a 10-20 percent at a superstar if we trade Jennings and Bogut for high picks, but then again, we might just get guys who develop into the next Jennings and/or Bogut over a few more years, even if we get the first pick in the draft (as Bogut himself proves). We might also get the next Yi and JoeA, and in fact this is the most likely scenario, since the lottery is a crapshoot. Are there more than 1-2 superstars per draft? How can we be sure we’d get one—we simply cannot.
So, this strategy would also IMO require a huge statistical outlier in order to be successful, making the tank/rebuild versus stick to your guns pretty much a wash in terms of championship possibilities.
Add to that some of Mitch’s points. Last year’s flop was truly about poor guard play more than chemistry or a backup 5 or Bogut’s injury or ‘no true power forward’. Jennings started well, then got hurt, and wasn’t quite the same for a while after returning. His cohorts at guard have been truly thin until this year except for 30 games or so of Salmons his rookie year. Not only is it not surprising he launched a lot of shots, but he was often the only one on the court who could create his own shot, meaning he has almost always been the default ‘get something, anything, off before the clock expires’ guy, which is inherently low percentage. I believe this may have had something to do with Kevin Durant’s rookie FG% as well (not expecting Jennings will be anything like Durant, just trying to create a more holistic view of what to expect than stats alone).
Steve the original article was good (if wrong in my opinion and ill timed), but don’t bore me with philisophical explanations of the nature of probabilities in the universe. You came out against Jennings and thats fine.
The bottom line is, basketball is a human game played by people. some people have the talent and desire to be successful and some do not. clearly jennings does. He is a winner, and thats why we love him. he LED the bucks to the doorstep of 2nd round playoffs at age 19 (can i introduce a “led team to playoffs as 19 yr old” stat that counteracts half of yours?). He is a winner because you get the feeling he will adapt his game to those around him, I have never gotten the sense that he is selfish, despite his volume of shots. Whether he can ever be a chris paul, that is unlikely.But the kid has talent, and the kid wants to win. thats exactly what it takes.
by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 22, 2012 7:17 AM CST reply actions
He might be a winner,
but the team hasn’t won yet. And unfortunately, that’s how we ultimately have to judge everyone on the Bucks.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 22, 2012 8:15 AM CST up reply actions
well what do you mean? a championship? as I said, he was the chief catalyst for the only success we have had in last decade. he has won in the nba.
by Daniel Flanagan on Jan 22, 2012 8:24 AM CST reply actions
One thing about deviant stats
Can we look at a baseball player that hits .200 for his first two years in 500 abs(he is a ss with a good glove so he stays in the line-up). Third year he hits .240, then a couple years later he’s up to .260. I can’t give you a concrete example of this, Ozzie Smith might be but I didn’t check, but I’m sure it happens. Some factors:
1. Maturity
2. Mechanics
3. Philosophy change-i.e. stop taking long 2s go to the rim more
4-PEDs
I am reasonably sure that BJ won’t shoot 46% for his career, I think it will be somewhere between that and his first two years. I’ll just repeat what I have been saying though, if you decide it’s Bogut or BJ, I think BJ is the right choice and Daniel has highlighted a lot of the reasons in his post.
Do you carry an umbrella if it’s a 51% chance of rain?
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
zomg you guys
keep your baseball out of my basketball!!!!!
(yes, the extra exclamation points were necessary.)
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 22, 2012 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
Would he be reason #4?
Power came out of nowhere? Good call. PEDs don’t account for the average though.
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
Nobody would have 500PAs batting .200
They wouldn’t be allowed
A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.
by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 22, 2012 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
Adam Dunn?
How many did he have last year…496 and he hit .159 wow
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
As a huge White Sox fan, I would appreciate it if you never mention Adam Dunn again.
SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn
by Steve von Horn on Jan 22, 2012 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
Ok
I’ll never mention Adam Dunnagain
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
Thank you.
SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn
by Steve von Horn on Jan 22, 2012 1:40 PM CST up reply actions
But athletes who do not earn their salary should/could take a lesson from the late Lyman Bostock
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67502
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
Very true, but I meant in their first 2 yrs.
A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.
by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 22, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Kind of moved the goalposts a little
But here’s guys with the worst FG% in 2000+ shots over their first five seasons, in case any names jump out: http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/3Jcet
Hey, Carlos is 19th! Woo?
Here is the same but in first three seasons, if that makes a difference: http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/nG17s
I never use a big word when a diminutive word would suffice.
Thanks for posting that
I never realized Lindsay Hunter was such a horrible shooter
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
Very cool. Thanks Jay
I willy try to comb through this and post some first 3 yrs vs. career percentages for guys that resemble Jennings in size and/or style
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 22, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
Ah, in the "user's notes" above the table in the second link I said shot clock era
Actually it’s 3 point era (79-80 to present). Doesn’t really matter since most of the worst offenders are from the 90s and 00s anyway but still.
I never use a big word when a diminutive word would suffice.
I glanced through it
It would help your argument mostly as I can’t see anyone who had more than a blip increase(Felton one year shot 45%). But then again no team has ever won a post-season series in baseball after being down 3-0. Oh wait………
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
by CanadaBucks on Jan 22, 2012 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
The table is now added to the article.
Check it out above
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 22, 2012 10:28 AM CST reply actions
Thanks again TheJay for the suggestion, it's a good follow through for me to do.
SB Nation Brew Hoop - Editor | SB Nation Midwest - News Desk Contributor | SB Nation Chicago - Writer | SB Nation Basketball - Scores & More | Twitter: @stevevonhorn
by Steve von Horn on Jan 22, 2012 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
Well, it's off to church...
Gonna ask God who’s right in this discussion? Who has the most wisdom? Be nice if things worked that way – but they don’t. (Do not BTW mean disrespect to anyone’s beliefs. Smoke ’em if you got ’em.)
In part, this is to me a debate between the Conscious Mind and the wow!-is-science-now-discovering-tremendos-things-about-it Splendid Unconscious (adjective mine). As developed in the new book “Thinking: Fast and Slow.” System 1 and System 2 described on p20.
Developing statistical analysis is a conscious activity, System 2. Important human activity. But getting its “compass” and wisdom from the larger unconscious, System 1.
So IMIO (2nd “I” for impertinent) smart GMs use a lot of System 2. Genius GMs get their genius from their System 1. To oversimplify, if you’re really, really in tune, what you feel has more wisdom than what you think. Because it draws on your finest, unconscious capabilities.
There are clear limits to all of this, of course. A lot of hokum thinks it’s wisdom, propped up on the claim of inspiration. You live your life, you make your choices, looking for resonance – and when you’re older, you ponder what it all meant. Luckily, one is not required (AFAIK) to repeat the process.
So… you won’t have unklchuk to kick around for a while. I’ll be at UU church. Badgers on BTN at 1; Bucks on FoxS at 6.
Fellow U.U., and fellow reader of "Thinking"
What you’re saying here is indeed impertinent. But I agree that very often your gut is right.
A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.
by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 22, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
I have "Thinking" on a short-term library loan
With a ton of holds waiting. Not sure if I’ll have enough time to fully decide if I should buy a copy for more relaxed reading. What do you think? (Assuming money doesn’t grow on trees.)
1. Wish I could convince myself that you meant my (specifically unklchuk’s) gut, but almost certainly you meant my (generically one’s) gut is right. That’s fine; I’m willing to share.
2. I’m a bit surprised their are two UUs willing to admit an interest in pro sports. Our Fellowship has 650+ and I can’t think of another there.
big mistake
should have said “interest in pro basketball.”
When a church even conflicts with a Packer football game, attendance drops 75%.
In a league where you need a true "star", the Bucks have pinned their hopes on psuedo-stars for the last 10 yrs...
Does BJ have true “star” potential???
They let R Allen go because they had Redd in waiting – Redd was a heck of a scorer, borderline all-star, but by no means a “star” or franchise player…
Then they got Bogut, and after 6 yrs, it’s obvious that he’s not a “star” or fanchise type, either…
Now they have BJ – a talented, scoring PG – and even though he’s young, it’s obvious to me that he won’t be a “star” – for he lacks two vital features that a “star” PG must have: size and great court vision/playmaking ability [not good, but great]
Yes, you can be an effective/good PG without being 6’2"+ and built [D Will, D Rose] or having the vision/playmaking skills of a Nash, CP3, etc…
So to me, the question is not if BJ is a good player – because he is and will hopefully get even better – but does the franchise view him as their cornerstone going forward?
I hope not, because given the position he plays, he’ll forever lack two vital features that elite PGs must have: great size/athleticism and great vision.
Just my two cents…
by victor s on Jan 22, 2012 11:25 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
"...the Bucks have pinned their hopes on psuedo-stars..."
My question would be did they have better options? (I tend to think that once their missteps caused the franchise situation to go sour, that Win Now became increasingly necessary.)
Well, they did a better option w/ Ray, but didn't Karl have alot to do w/ that?
Regardless, I view BJ as a nice piece to a puzzle, but not a cornerstone.
I want to keep Jennings if the price is right... he has improved his shooting every year so far and is gradually learning to play the game the right way... I dont think he will ever be a star...
although i think he has decent upside but I do think he will be a good NBA player…
I'd be fine keeping BJ, IF....
The Bucks put together a competent roster…
I think BJ can become a Tony Parker-type PG – a scorer that passes just enough, but can’t, nor shouldn’t be the focal point of the team.
Adding a low-post threat and legit wing scorer should be paramount in the off-season
THANK YOU.
This is the best summary of my thoughts on Jennings and the Bucks in general. Tony Parker would be a wonderful model for his game (with better 3-point range). But Bogut is no Duncan on offense, so either Leuer needs to learn scoring or another move needs to be made.
And as far as wing scorers go, we still have Stephen Jackson next year…guh…
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 22, 2012 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
And i agree with the low-post threat
That’s why I mentioned Sullinger before, doesn’t ahve to be him but we need an inside game badly.
"He always plays like he's a pit bull that hasn't been fed in about a year and that you've got pork chops in your pockets and that's the basketball." Of course, he's Canadian
A couple other things that Jennings has going for him that are in favor of him reaching his upside are...
-he was the #1 rated high school player at a time…
-he is still young enough to be playing in college so this time really is development time for him
-he is a PG who have been late bloomers lately
Good points, but the #1 H.S. player thing is a lil shaky
Wasn’t Kwame also the #1 H.S. player in the country? ; )
Be careful.
That’s a massive outlier…
by Jacob Grinyer on Jan 22, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
LOL
A samurai sword collection. If you can do it. I don’t know if you’re allowed.
by TwoShoesMcGooze on Jan 22, 2012 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
That clip made me so happy.
Truly Stephen A. Smith’s finest moment.
http://twitter.com/WhalesLarry ...but only if you want to see someone still trying to figure Twitter out.
by Mitchell Maurer on Jan 22, 2012 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
here it is
look brandon jennings is the best player on out team…bogut might have had a chance but that injury ruined it id agree his shooting percentage is low…horrible sure but it was good enough when he as a rookie and some bum named john salmons led the bucks on a what? 25-7 stretch to get into the playoffs? and then gave a much better atlanta hawks team fits? idk about you guys but i remember a rookie brandon jennings making great passes hitting HUGE 3’s to keep us in games and being damn near perfect from the free throw line in sink or swim situations late in close games and ill say this you cant use last year because of how stagnant the offense is look this is a guy who would try to run a play like coached to do nobody would get open or move around, ie u rember john salmons who would pump take a step then pass the ball? well same wit everyone else, so then with about 3 seconeds left they’d say hey give it to jennings and there he is forced to take a bad shot or watch the shot clock expire, hey remember when derrick rose didnt have an inside game his first 3 years? and everyone said he was weak and a mistake? well now he is a mvp calibre player when jennings gets that tear drop shot/layup down hes going to be closer to 42% shooting and will average around 26 points a game, sorry im not going to give up on the guy who came in and put up 56 points his rookie year…just not going to happen, especially when he has been by far the best player ive watched in a bucks uniform over the last idk 4-5 years
I understand the sentiment. I honestly do.
I’m just not sure he makes that Derrick Rose type turn.
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by Steve von Horn on Jan 24, 2012 12:36 PM CST up reply actions

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